The Lisbon Treaty

2008-05-26 03:59:22

#1

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6978

Well my European brethren the time is almost upon the Irish to decide the fate of the EU. On the 12th of June my fellow countrymen and I will be voting on whether to ratify the Lisbon Treaty. It seems that democracy is dead in the rest of Europe: we are the only nation being afforded the right to make our own decision on whether or not this treaty should be ratified. Every single other country in Europe is ratifying the treaty at parliamentary level and the people are not being consulted - a treaty which is almost a carbon copy of the 'EU Constitution' rejected by the people of France and Holland in referendums there.

Valerie Giscard D'Estaing:

"The proposed institutional reforms, the only ones which mattered to the drafting convention, are all to be found in the Treaty of Lisbon. They have merely been ordered differently and split up between previous treaties."
"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

If this is not a constitution then why are the people of Ireland being asked to approve an amendment of our constitution???

The people of Europe are being hoodwinked. It is our duty here in Ireland to stop this going ahead. I do not want Europe to become a European 'US'. I am content with the loose association member states now have and want no further integration, no further centralisation of power and no further homogenisation of Europe and her cultures. I do not want a cut-throat Europe based on 'undistorted competition'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eig … of_Ireland
http://www.libertas.org/

Fellow Europeans, what are your thoughts on this treaty? How would you feel if Ireland stopped the whole thing in its tracks?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-05-26 04:08:44)

2008-05-26 04:07:11

#2

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|7043|London, England

I haven't been following this at all. Could you summarise the good/bad of this? Or is it really what you say in your OP, they're basically trying to make the Union tighter like a United (Soviet Socialist) States?

Oh yeah and seeing as we're not going to be given a voice on this, no doubt the government will go against the wishes of the people and will vote for this. The wanks

2008-05-26 04:08:06

#3

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6978

Mek-Stizzle wrote:
I haven't been following this at all. Could you summarise the good/bad of this? Or is it really what you say in your OP, they're basically trying to make the Union tighter like a United (Soviet Socialist) States?

Oh yeah and seeing as we're not going to be given a voice on this, no doubt the government will go against the wishes of the people and will vote for this. The wanks

Unfortunately for you, your government has already ratified it - although it was the tightest vote out of all those so far. It still has to go to the House of Lords though.

2008-05-26 04:10:54

#4

ghettoperson: Member; +1,943|7072

They're determined to get some form of this through aren't they? Fucking politicians, we've already told them we don't want it. I'm moving to Canada. If it fails in Ireland will it fail completely? Until next time they try it.

2008-05-26 04:11:39

#5

jord: Member; +2,382|7100|The North, beyond the wall.

Seeing as how I don't know one person from here that knows the benefits/negatives or anything at all about this treaty... Dare I say it...

Maybe the Government knows what's best for the people this time.

I feel dirty now.

2008-05-26 04:22:42

#6

ZombieVampire!: The Gecko; +69|6250

CameronPoe wrote:
It seems that democracy is dead in the rest of Europe

Democratic freedoms seem to be on the downturn in most of the Western world. The goverment is reducing personal freedoms, and the people are thanking the government for keeping them "safe".

2008-05-26 04:49:34

#7

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6978

ghettoperson wrote:
They're determined to get some form of this through aren't they? Fucking politicians, we've already told them we don't want it. I'm moving to Canada. If it fails in Ireland will it fail completely? Until next time they try it.

If we reject it then the treaty fails outright.

2008-05-26 04:51:32

#8

ghettoperson: Member; +1,943|7072

Sweet. Go Ireland.

2008-05-26 04:51:54

#9

Bertster7: Confused Pothead; +1,101|7004|SE London

CameronPoe wrote:
ghettoperson wrote:
They're determined to get some form of this through aren't they? Fucking politicians, we've already told them we don't want it. I'm moving to Canada. If it fails in Ireland will it fail completely? Until next time they try it.
If we reject it then the treaty fails outright.

Reject! Reject!

One thing Tory leaders always did well on was Europe. Major did an outstanding job with Maastricht and Thatcher did a great job on the rebate.

It'll probably get overturned in the Lords here anyway.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2008-05-26 04:55:33)

2008-05-26 04:54:32

#10

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|7043|London, England

You bes' be rejectin' then nigga

But I still don't know the pros/cons to this. But I've always been against the EU becoming too tight, I mean I know things are different now compared to previous times in Europe but at the end of the day everyone still hates everyone else

2008-05-26 05:18:44

#11

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6978

Mek-Stizzle wrote:
You bes' be rejectin' then nigga

But I still don't know the pros/cons to this. But I've always been against the EU becoming too tight, I mean I know things are different now compared to previous times in Europe but at the end of the day everyone still hates everyone else

Some samples (the document is 250 pages of unreadable legal jargon):

The Lisbon Treaty states that the EU has exclusive competence in a number of areas including the customs union, the establishment of the competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market and monetary policy for the Member States whose currency is the Euro.

There would be a stonger Common Foreign and Security Policy with a specific 'High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy'. I don't want some tosser from another country dragging me into wars I might disagree with. I don't want a common security policy with a nation that occupies six of my country's counties either.

At present, some decisions by the Council must be made unanimously while others are made by Qualified Majority Voting (QMV). Under the QMV system, each Member State’s vote is given a weighting. This is not directly proportionate to the population. The weighting arrangements give smaller countries a greater share than their populations would warrant if a directly proportional arrangement existed.

The Lisbon Treaty would extend the decision making powers of the European Parliament (in as many as 60 areas of policy).

The Lisbon Treaty now proposes to give the European Council (Heads of Government) the power to propose changes to certain parts of the governing Treaties (without referring back to the masses). The Lisbon Treaty also proposes to give the European Council the power to amend the Treaties so as to allow Qualified Majority Voting to operate in certain areas where unanimity is now required.

Each member state will only have a commissioner representing their country on the EU Commission for 10 out of every 15 years (!).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-05-26 05:20:45)

2008-05-26 05:33:59

#12

B.Schuss: I'm back, baby... ( sort of ); +664|7263|Cologne, Germany

seriously, cam, from what I have gathered about the treaty, it is largely about reducing the ever-present stalemate in the decision-making through the adoption of qualified majority voting and strengthening the EU parliament, among other things.

Also, it would actually strengthen the role of the irish parliament with regard to certain decisions the EU takes:

"At present, national parliaments are not directly involved in EU decision making. If the Treaty enters into force then national parliaments – in Ireland’s case, the Dáil and Seanad - will have 8 weeks after the publication of an EU legislative proposal to vet that proposal and offer an opinion.

If a number of national parliaments object to the proposal it must be reviewed. Each national parliament has two votes; the Dáil and Seanad have one vote each. The review must take place if one third of the national parliaments request this. In the case of judicial co-operation in criminal matters and police co-operation, a quarter of the national parliaments would be able to require a review. The Treaty would also give national parliaments a specific role in relation to proposed changes to the Treaties."

as far as the change of the irish constitution is concerned, as far as I know, it is only an amendment, and moreover, only necessary because the irish supreme court ruled in 1987 that ratification by Ireland of any significant amendment to the Treaties of European Union requires an amendment to the Constitution of Ireland. All Constitutional amendments require approval by referendum.

So it's not like the irish are being asked to throw out their constitution. The amendment is only necessary because there is simply no other way for ireland to ratify the lisbon treaty. The lisbon treaty itself doesn't require any changing of the irish constitution, or does it ?

As far as the proposed changes of the lisbon treaty are concerned, everyone has the right to his/her opinion. Personally, I don't think those changes are so bad that a total block of the treaty is justified. But that doesn't mean that the irish cannot come to a different conclusion.
The real problem I see is that the details of the treaty, and its ramnifications for the individual member states are so complex, that
you'd have to have a degree in political science/law/business, to fully understand it. And even those who have those, will freely admit that it's bloody hard to understand.
Wether a referendum makes much sense under those circumstances, is another point of interest.

this treaty didn't spring up from nowhere. It was developped over months and years, and every member state, including ireland, has had a fair chance to weigh in, and let their voices and concerns be heard. I don't know what more one could ask for, really.

The EU is in dire need of reform, and the lisbon treaty is all but a first step in that direction. The irish government has said it supports the treaty, and I hope its people do, too.

2008-05-26 05:36:39

#13

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

Are your representatives to your Parliament elected officials?

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-05-26 05:43:13

#14

B.Schuss: I'm back, baby... ( sort of ); +664|7263|Cologne, Germany

FEOS wrote:
Are your representatives to your Parliament elected officials?

is that a question to me, or cam ?

2008-05-26 05:48:38

#15

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

B.Schuss wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Are your representatives to your Parliament elected officials?
is that a question to me, or cam ?

Sorry...it's for Cam.

Not everything's about YOU, Schuss!

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-05-26 06:51:40

#16

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6942|Πάϊ

B.Schuss wrote:
it is largely about reducing the ever-present stalemate in the decision-making

I love this stalemate. Centralization of power is a bad thing. We should be looking to do the opposite, save a few harmless things like say, environment protection, where the decision making process should be centralized, simplified and empowered over regional governments.

Go Ireland! Stick it up their ass

_ƒ³

2008-05-26 06:59:52

#17

max: Vela Incident; +1,652|6990|NYC / Hamburg

CameronPoe wrote:
It seems that democracy is dead in the rest of Europe: we are the only nation being afforded the right to make our own decision on whether or not this treaty should be ratified.

Oi! We're also European

_{once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, " give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404.}

2008-05-26 07:05:11

#18

Noobeater: Northern numpty; +194|6869|Boulder, CO

no, no your not mr neutral.

Last edited by Noobeater (2008-05-26 07:05:29)

2008-05-26 07:32:32

#19

B.Schuss: I'm back, baby... ( sort of ); +664|7263|Cologne, Germany

FEOS wrote:
B.Schuss wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Are your representatives to your Parliament elected officials?
is that a question to me, or cam ?
Sorry...it's for Cam.

Not everything's about YOU, Schuss!

pah...dämlicher Imperialist..

2008-05-26 08:29:23

#20

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

B.Schuss wrote:
FEOS wrote:
B.Schuss wrote:
is that a question to me, or cam ?
Sorry...it's for Cam.

Not everything's about YOU, Schuss!
pah...dämlicher Imperialist..

don't you forget it

https://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:f5IPp4EFJgLWMM:https://web.mit.edu/mtg/www/2005/FAL/photos/show/IMG_8495.JPG

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-05-26 08:56:46

#21

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6978

FEOS wrote:
Are your representatives to your Parliament elected officials?

Yes they are. On Europe they are a bunch of spineless cunts though. Whatever 'Europe' is doing they will blindly follow like sheep. Ireland should have been the last to recognise Kosovo as an independent state, given our history, yet there were our politicians eagerly awaiting their chance to clutch a pen and sign away a piece of Serbian territory. Our politicians, whilst having managed our economy well, have sickened me with their completely uncritical view of the EU and the dilution of sovereignty it entails. I'm all for a freely trading Europe with freedom of movement and common interests being served but the rot has to stop now. No more consolidation. Enough is enough.

2008-05-26 08:58:44

#22

David.P: Banned; +649|6696

Hell no to the E.U.! Goddamn liberal politicians bring back the cold war! Etc etc.

2008-05-26 11:27:49

#23

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

CameronPoe wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Are your representatives to your Parliament elected officials?
Yes they are. On Europe they are a bunch of spineless cunts though. Whatever 'Europe' is doing they will blindly follow like sheep. Ireland should have been the last to recognise Kosovo as an independent state, given our history, yet there were our politicians eagerly awaiting their chance to clutch a pen and sign away a piece of Serbian territory. Our politicians, whilst having managed our economy well, have sickened me with their completely uncritical view of the EU and the dilution of sovereignty it entails. I'm all for a freely trading Europe with freedom of movement and common interests being served but the rot has to stop now. No more consolidation. Enough is enough.

While I understand your position, it's a bit much to say that because the people aren't voting on it, that it's not democratic. You elected the representatives who will vote on it. That is democratic, also.

Sounds like the people need to let those voting how they feel about it. If they don't follow their constituents' wishes, then they lose their jobs at the next election to someone who will.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-05-26 12:05:23

#24

Bell: Frosties > Cornflakes; +362|6972|UK

Bring it down. Like I said in that Russia joining the EU thread, the EU was only ever intended to increase trade amoung the member nations, it was not supposed to be a parallel USA. Countries joined under that premis of trade, not, to an eventual European Presidency which is where it will head.

Martyn

2008-05-27 02:34:21

#25

ZombieVampire!: The Gecko; +69|6250

FEOS wrote:
While I understand your position, it's a bit much to say that because the people aren't voting on it, that it's not democratic. You elected the representatives who will vote on it. That is democratic, also.

Well, technically not, but then people tend to igore technicalities so as not to bluster on for too long.

FEOS wrote:
Sounds like the people need to let those voting how they feel about it. If they don't follow their constituents' wishes, then they lose their jobs at the next election to someone who will.

Which only works if there's an alternative for the people. Further, they're still bound by the treaty.

BF2S Forums The Lisbon Treaty

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