Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,827|6583|eXtreme to the maX
Outsourcing has screwed us. By 'us' I mean western industrialised nations with high standards of living.
I'm not too sure on exactly what happened when, its been an insidious process we've barely noticed happen.

What has happened?
Work and jobs have been allowed to drain away to low cost centres where people are poorer, ethical standards are lower and workplace rules non-existent by comparison with the unionised west.
Corporations have been able to move production abroad without hindrance or having to face the total cost of doing so. With free trade there are no barriers. Their only duties are to their shareholders, not the country at large (and why should they be?)

We are in a period when the labour has already gone and we are competing to teach the Chinese to take our engineering jobs from us - which is insane. So many engineering companies are sending their designs to China to be picked over and copied soon we will have no intellectual property left.
One company I worked for used to sell parts to a Chinese company, we sold 10,000, then 1,000, then 100. We called up to ask when they would next order - 'Its OK, we worked out how to make them - thankyou'.
A company who was trying to sell parts into Chinese power stations was told they would need to supply all design details, manufacturing drawings, material specifications etc and explain the function to a committee at a university. They didn't go through with that.
The company I am in now runs a program to send engineers from here for two year stints to train the Chinese engineers to do our jobs. Are we dumb or what? The standard of their work is not that high, but its getting rapidly better.

What are the effects?
Western 'industrialised' nations don't make anything any more, many highly trained and skilled people are now on the dole.
Other countries have invested incredible amounts in plant and equipment, giving their businesses interest free 'loans'.
I've seen the pictures of plant tours in China, we can never hope to compete again.

Students don't bother to study engineering or science (not as many at least).
Whats the point? There is no industry to work in, what ithere is is rapidly spiralling out of existence, competing with China etc the wages just aren't there.
Its far easier to be an estate agent, or graphic artist than something which requires a close technical understanding of what you're doing.
As we don't make anything we don't need to understand it. Goods are so cheap they are disposable so we don't even need to know how to fix them.
My iPod works fine, why should I pay attention in Physics? I'll listen to the iPod instead thanks. If it breaks I'll buy another.
Soon we will have a generation who can barely change the batteries in their remote.

Without science training people don't learn basic critical thought and the necessity of getting things right.
Philosophy and essays are at the end of the day a load of yak and opinion. If you get it wrong so what?
They just don't stretch the brain in the same way or instil the same discipline as say calculus or relativity, there literally is no 'acid test' for 'gender studies' or other such crap. Any answer is the right answer.

Outsourcing is almost solely responsible for the expansion of the asian economies, increases in living standards and increased levels of consumption.
Huge amounts of money have flowed out of the West and into asia. They can now afford cars, refrigerators, leisure flights etc, and to buy up large parts of the west. Tata Motors now own Jaguar and Land Rover - the mind boggles.

As the West goes into recession, driven by our desire for goods but aversion to paying for them, the East will continue to expand. Its reached its critical mass and no longer needs us. Internal consumption and economic expansion will keep them going.
Now they are competing with us for natural resources, which we have already half depleted like oil, and we truly are in deep trouble.

How did we miss this exactly?
Fuck Israel
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6630|what

At present the skills shortage in Australia is actually not in technical skills, but basic manual labor skills. It's easier for the US to simply hire Mexicans and other ethnicities (sp.) for that sort of job but we don't have that option. We can't outsource it.

But still outsourcing of the technical skills is a problem. It only weakens the job market in the country. I can see the moral benefits by giving poorer nations a stronger workforce which has potential to make money, but it does come at the cost of the donor country.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7128|USA
I wonder if unions artificially inflating the worth of an individual by "negotiating" salaries and benefits that do not correspond with the works skill, training, or uniqueness is a big part of the problem.
I always wondered why a guy that sticks a bolt in a hole on an auto assembly line has "earned" 30 bucks an hour with benefits. Has he really earned it through skilled labor, training or education, or has unions somehow made him entitled to it?

Believe it or not a company is not in business to provide you with a living, they are in business to make money. If they can turn a greater profit without you rather than with you, then YOU have got a big problem.

Last edited by lowing (2008-06-02 07:05:15)

B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7318|Cologne, Germany

I am not really sure if outsourcing is the real problem. Rather, I'd say the "problem" behind these issues is that we were lead to believe that the "first world" ( i.e., the west ) would always lead on the innovation and technological fronts, while the "third world" and the developping countries would only provide cheap manual labor, and not bother with creating technology themselves.

The idea that we would one day have to compete with engineers in india, or china was so absurd to us, that we didn't even bother to prepare our economies and our workforce for that.
Instead, we built a very high lifestyle on the cheap labor that these countries provided us with, and ignored that fact that, slowly but steadily, they were chewing away at the lead that we once had.
We are still ahead, I believe, but not by as much as we used to. Nations like China or India have worked very hard during the past decades to create their own pool of engineers, and soon, they'll not only be copying what we invent/develop, but create important innovations themselves.

But seriously, what did we expect ? Those are the realities of globalization. Did we really think these people would be content with the position we put them in ?
And what's so different, really ? Instead of competing locally, or regionally, we are now competing internationally. I'll admit that the developping countries have the distinct advantage that they still have considerably low standards of living, and can afford to pay their employees a lot less ( for the same job ) than over here. But I have no doubts that over time, standards of living, salaries, and other factors ( such as environmental standards ) will balance themselves between the west and the now-developping countries.

Let's put it this way: there is only so much wealth the world's economy can generate. Until now, that wealth has been primarily shared between the industrialized western nations. Let's face it, we have profitted hugely from exploting the cheap workfore which the third world provided. I mean, who do you think makes your fancy sneakers, and assembles your IPods and Playstations ? And what you think that same product would cost if it were assembled by a american union worker ? 
As lowing has said, we have reached a point at which the unions decide what a product is worth, and not the market. And we are paying the price for that now.
The way I see it, the "third world" wants a bigger piece of the cake, and there is little we can do but try out best to stay ahead on the technological and innovation fronts.

Standards of living and salaries are bound to go down in the west, at least if we plan to keep some of our production capabilities. Look at the automotive industry, for example. Salaries, built on decades of western technological superiority. Those simply can not last if we plan to compete with companies such as Tata.

Outsourcing is the result of greedy western corporations wanting more profit, and cheap average consumers, wanting lower prices.
We have dug our own grave, so-to-speak, and if we are not careful, the chinese are going to finish the job for us.
David.P
Banned
+649|6751
I say we do what the japanese are trying to do. Replace most of the low paying and repetitive manual labor jobs with robots!
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7318|Cologne, Germany

David.P wrote:

I say we do what the japanese are trying to do. Replace most of the low paying and repetitive manual labor jobs with robots!
well, the problem with that is, if you want the majority of people to earn enough to be able to actually afford all those products that the robots assemble, you'll have to find new jobs for them. Because if they aren't employed, how are they going to pay for that stuff ?

It's sort of a vicious circle. If you want to compete with the developping countries, you'll have to somehow bring the costs down, but if you do that, you'll have to pay your employees less, which in turn will lead to less spending for the products you want to sell.

The question is, what areas are all of these people supposed to work in, who are now largely employed in assembling/production ?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7078|132 and Bush

We have been waging a war against corporation in America. As long as we are committed to making it harder to do business at home there will be more outsourcing. Like it or not thats the way it is.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7213|Salt Lake City

Kmarion wrote:

We have been waging a war against corporation in America. As long as we are committed to making it harder to do business at home there will be more outsourcing. Like it or not thats the way it is.
How so?  If competing means completely deregulating businesses, we are all fucked anyway.  Sorry, but companies can't have the ability to just dump their harmful, if not very toxic, waste and byproducts anywhere they want because other 3rd world countries do it for cost savings.  We can't just shut down the SEC and other government entities whose job it is to make sure these companies are making people believe the company is profitable while they get rich on a scheme that is a house of cards. 

Quite frankly, deregulation has led to more schemes that have wreaked havoc with our economy and financial institutions than regulation has.

I have hardly seen a war against corporate America.
chittydog
less busy
+586|7312|Kubra, Damn it!

B.Schuss wrote:

The question is, what areas are all of these people supposed to work in, who are now largely employed in assembling/production ?
That's a problem for the Chinese government, since they now have all of our assembling/production.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7287|Nårvei

Kmarion wrote:

We have been waging a war against corporation in America. As long as we are committed to making it harder to do business at home there will be more outsourcing. Like it or not thats the way it is.
True ... what i don't get is how the corporations think anybody can purchase their products when they don't make money, when they outsource the production they also outsource the sales eventually ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7078|132 and Bush

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

We have been waging a war against corporation in America. As long as we are committed to making it harder to do business at home there will be more outsourcing. Like it or not thats the way it is.
How so?  If competing means completely deregulating businesses, we are all fucked anyway.  Sorry, but companies can't have the ability to just dump their harmful, if not very toxic, waste and byproducts anywhere they want because other 3rd world countries do it for cost savings.  We can't just shut down the SEC and other government entities whose job it is to make sure these companies are making people believe the company is profitable while they get rich on a scheme that is a house of cards. 

Quite frankly, deregulation has led to more schemes that have wreaked havoc with our economy and financial institutions than regulation has.

I have hardly seen a war against corporate America.
I was speaking more to the fact of bitching about job creating tax incentives. It's pretty damn simple. You can't force companies to operate where you want them to. They will go where it makes the most economic sense. The only possible answer government has is to levy a tariff on imports, which will in turn will just be passed right back to the consumers. Why do you think the Chinese have been consistently devaluing their yuan? It keeps operating cost low and attracts foreign business. Ironically this is where the falling dollar might actually be a good thing. You can't simply wish everyone into staying home and playing by your rules. It's called the global economy for a reason.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7078|132 and Bush

Varegg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

We have been waging a war against corporation in America. As long as we are committed to making it harder to do business at home there will be more outsourcing. Like it or not thats the way it is.
True ... what i don't get is how the corporations think anybody can purchase their products when they don't make money, when they outsource the production they also outsource the sales eventually ...
They might not physically manufacture some of their products but they are also in the business of marketing and managing supply chains. There is a lot that goes into making a product available. Corporations (as a separate entity) are just investments into the profitability of a brand. They are nothing but the representation of groups of people, working families like everyone else. The great majority of jobs in the United States are provided by corporations. We have some bad apples and everyone insist on vilifying them all (easy answers to tough questions). Despite what some people have suggested in this thread I don't believe in complete unregulated business. We have a judicial system that catches these crooks routinely. But we can't go to the other extreme as well. Moderation.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6882|North Carolina
Pretty much all this points to restructuring the education system.  America needs to develop a system similar to Germany's.  This would require massive changes however....

1. Splitting children up at 8th grade according to ability: either on a technical track or an academic track
2. Completely socializing public colleges and creating far more technical colleges to accommodate the increased number of students that would be going to them.
3. Four-year colleges would lessen in relevance because only certain students will be good at academics as compared to trades.  We definitely need more skilled labor in this country, because we currently have a surplus of unskilled labor coming from Mexico.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6888|'Murka

Dilbert, you sell yourself short. This is two topics in one day that we agree on.

Gotta go, there's four dudes on horseback coming down the street...one's got a trumpet...weird.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard