No, it's a 'permanent military bases outside of the US when the Cold War ended in 1989?' thread.Pug wrote:
Well I believe there's a possibility of strengthing the Iraqi government without violence and without Imperialism. There are examples in this thread earlier which you dismissed as bullshit or not relevant.CameronPoe wrote:
Iraqis will necessarily die in a civil war. They're dying right now, those that aren't boxed into segregated walled communities refusing to go to the market that is.Pug wrote:
Ok, Iraqis won't die if there's a civil war.
Happy?
Just a quick check though - Is this another "I told you so" thread re: Iraq War?
You'd find more death and despair skimming through our own National news.CameronPoe wrote:
Here's the Reuters feed on Iraq for today, the 6th of June 2008, with several hours of said day left to go:Kmarion wrote:
Much has changed in a year (March 2007). A dramatic decrease in violence would surely effect popular opinion.
It's understandable that you hadn't noticed.http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/86930/During the first 10 weeks of 2007, Iraq accounted for 23 percent of the newshole fornetwork TV news. In 2008, it plummeted to 3 percent during that period. On cable networks it fell from 24 percent to 1 percent, according to a study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ANS621059.htm
Just because Iraq has dropped out of the news does not mean it's all scented flowers and campfires...
But lets look at a few of your updates:
These are bad why?AL-HAYY - A special groups leader surrendered to U.S. forces in al-Hayy, 150 km (90 miles), southeast of Baghdad. The man is suspected of ordering attacks on coalition forces, as well as attacks and kidnappings of civilians. He is also suspected of smuggling Iranian rockets into Baghdad. "Special Groups" is a U.S. military term for Shi'ite militants backed by Iran.
KIRKUK PROVINCE - U.S. forces killed four militants and detained more than 20 others during an operation targeting al Qaeda in Iraq in Kirkuk Province, north of Baghdad, on Wednesday, the U.S. military said.
BAGHDAD - A U.S. airstrike killed four militants on Thursday just after they loaded their truck with weapons in Baghdad's Sadr City district, the U.S. military said.
* BAGHDAD - Coalition forces captured 10 wanted men and detained 22 others in operations targeting al Qaeda bombing networks in Baghdad, Mosul and the Tigris River valley on Thursday and Friday, said the U.S. military.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
So do you deny that the "Surge" is working?CameronPoe wrote:
Here's the Reuters feed on Iraq for today, the 6th of June 2008, with several hours of said day left to go:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ANS621059.htm
Just because Iraq has dropped out of the news does not mean it's all scented flowers and campfires...
I find it odd that Americans willingly indebt themselves to China in Iraq while they have enough domestic woes of their own.
This past May, 508 Iraqis lost their lives incidentally.
Why did you omit the civilian death stories, pray tell....?Kmarion wrote:
But lets look at a few of your updates:These are bad why?AL-HAYY - A special groups leader surrendered to U.S. forces in al-Hayy, 150 km (90 miles), southeast of Baghdad. The man is suspected of ordering attacks on coalition forces, as well as attacks and kidnappings of civilians. He is also suspected of smuggling Iranian rockets into Baghdad. "Special Groups" is a U.S. military term for Shi'ite militants backed by Iran.
KIRKUK PROVINCE - U.S. forces killed four militants and detained more than 20 others during an operation targeting al Qaeda in Iraq in Kirkuk Province, north of Baghdad, on Wednesday, the U.S. military said.
BAGHDAD - A U.S. airstrike killed four militants on Thursday just after they loaded their truck with weapons in Baghdad's Sadr City district, the U.S. military said.
* BAGHDAD - Coalition forces captured 10 wanted men and detained 22 others in operations targeting al Qaeda bombing networks in Baghdad, Mosul and the Tigris River valley on Thursday and Friday, said the U.S. military.
More troops in - deaths go down. Troops go home - deaths go up. At 151,000 troops stationed in Iraq, in peace time, you have a monthly death toll at the moment of at least 500 Iraqis. Sustainable? Worth rejoicing? Is this surge actually a permanent increase of your stretched military? Cos if it isn't then the 'gains' will be shortlived. The US military is not the solution to this. It will never eradicate the problem it created.Pug wrote:
So do you deny that the "Surge" is working?
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-06 09:15:43)
Because I wasn't questioning your logic there. Half of your updates didn't make sense with your train of thought.CameronPoe wrote:
Why did you omit the civilian death stories, pray tell....?Kmarion wrote:
But lets look at a few of your updates:These are bad why?AL-HAYY - A special groups leader surrendered to U.S. forces in al-Hayy, 150 km (90 miles), southeast of Baghdad. The man is suspected of ordering attacks on coalition forces, as well as attacks and kidnappings of civilians. He is also suspected of smuggling Iranian rockets into Baghdad. "Special Groups" is a U.S. military term for Shi'ite militants backed by Iran.
KIRKUK PROVINCE - U.S. forces killed four militants and detained more than 20 others during an operation targeting al Qaeda in Iraq in Kirkuk Province, north of Baghdad, on Wednesday, the U.S. military said.
BAGHDAD - A U.S. airstrike killed four militants on Thursday just after they loaded their truck with weapons in Baghdad's Sadr City district, the U.S. military said.
* BAGHDAD - Coalition forces captured 10 wanted men and detained 22 others in operations targeting al Qaeda bombing networks in Baghdad, Mosul and the Tigris River valley on Thursday and Friday, said the U.S. military.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Goes to show I wasn't hiding anything. I could have cut and paste a tailored post for my argument.Kmarion wrote:
Because I wasn't questioning your logic there. Half of your updates didn't make sense with your train of thought.
The developing world will get nowhere without the western world simple as, if companies hadn't invested in places like India, Taiwan, Hong Kong and so on they wouldn't be anything like they are today. Funny how places in the ME like Israel, Dubai, portions of Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE all have significantly higher standards in terms of living and its because they have buisness links with the West. Where do you think China would be without the west buying what it makes? The imperialistic moves you're talking about mean nothing today, Guam, Phillipines, French Polynesia, Falklands all benefit far more from being areas influenced by the countries that watch over them than they would going alone. How would these countries function alone? You take out all support they get and what happens? They'll just collapse and we'll have serious problems arising with their populations not being able to provide enough to keep their country stable. Like it or not, isolationism, sitting on the fence, and to an extent basically complaining about situations yet not prepared to anything about it, is not a very good way forward for todays world.CameronPoe wrote:
Cold war ends: an end to the need for US bases all over the world. Full stop. They are no longer necessary. Simple as that. Their only possible purpose is to serve US strategic ends. Why the fuck do European nations need US bases on their soil anymore? M.O.A.B. - if the US isn't imperialistic then why did it try to annex the Phillipines and took Puerto Rico upon their 'liberation' from Spain (instead of allowing them to become sovereign)? Why do they still have Guam? The reason is that these bases are in strategic locations, jump-off points from which the US can exercise their mliitary prowess at short notice. It's the same reason the Brits evacuated all of the indigenous inhabitants of Diego Garcia to take that for themselves. No natural resources there. Korea and Japan are the east Asia strategic locales. Iraq will now be the US' strategic base in the middle east from which they can protect Israel, with the added bonus of oodles of oil (75% of which they have written into Iraqi law as a free for all (I wonder who'll win the contracts, eh?)).M.O.A.B wrote:
Not really, there are permanent US bases in Japan, guess that's still a conflict zone. As far as this whole Imperialism fad is concerned I don't see it. US established bases in Europe to hold agaisnt the USSR, Cold War ends, bases remain in areas that don't provide the US with resources. Japan, no natural resources, Korea, nothing is taken there. Iraq, yet to see any evidence of oil being taken out by the US alone, the oil buisness from Iraq supplies the same customers it always has. US has bases in Saudi Arabia, guess they're stealing their oil as well. There's a US base in Bosnia near Tuzla, guess they're after the salt form the mines there eh?
Then again its America's buisness what they do, its the UK's buisness what they do, essentially attempting to tell them not to meddle in someone elses buisness is meddling in theirs.
I think I distinctly remember seeing cheering Iraqis when US forces rolled into Baghdad and pulled down Saddam's statue. The majority of the violence didn't take place during the invasion it took place during the policing aspect. The lack of news coverage coming out of Iraq lately suggests there's not a lot of bad things going on there, after all the media follows bad news like a dog with a bone.
Besides they haven't gone in and wiped out their culture, a lot of Iraqis liked the new influence of western culture as it gave them more to buy in shops and improve their lifestyle. They helped them build up schools so they could learn more alongside their own, you make it sound like they just torched all the Iraqi flags and stuck their own in its place.
Its almost getting to the point where if I stepped accidentally onto my neighbours lawn someone would yell 'omg Imperialist!'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulati … ego_Garcia
M.O.A.B. - you trust the western world and its motives too much. The developing world needs to be protected from our greedy pilfering hands, not subjected to them.
lol at the western culture bit: you do realise that before the occupation headscarves were by choice, now their a necessity to prevent you being killed. Does McDonalds, Zara and American outfitters really interest people living in barricaded segregated Sunni/Shia ghettos in Baghdad where running water and electricity, AFTER FIVE YEARS, is still a luxury and not a given?
It does have a nice ring to it, can I be the British ambassador?Kmarion wrote:
The American Empire.. I like the sound of that.
Do we have to throw out our current government in favor of an Emperor? When can we start expecting non military settlements? I hear the weather in Iraq is fabulous this time of year. I can't wait to stake my claim.
Serious time:It appears that this would not be possible unless we agreed to the Iraqi terms.A majority of the Iraqi parliament has already written to the US Congress rejecting the long-term security deal unless it is linked to a requirement that US forces leave.
Then you were simply pointing out the obvious. I could pull random stories from anywhere in the world to demonstrate the inherent violent nature of humans.CameronPoe wrote:
Goes to show I wasn't hiding anything. I could have cut and paste a tailored post for my argument.Kmarion wrote:
Because I wasn't questioning your logic there. Half of your updates didn't make sense with your train of thought.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Just checking you knew the difference between Hitler and the US.PureFodder wrote:
Ok, you can't seriously believe that I equated the US to Hitler, so presumably you're just being obtuse. I just gave an example where a similar argument could easily be made, but with very different parties. Now that it's the bad guys not wanting to withdraw due to the obvious repercussions that involve lots of people suffering and being killed that DID happen you no longer support your own argument.
Right, and in the process be called "imperialistic", and doing so be seeing as "gunboat capitalists" to earn juicy oil export contracts. Even if all you do is help fixed up the country. It's a no win situation, which I recognize as such.PureFodder wrote:
If Saddam had claimed that there would be a civil war in Kuwait if he left would you care, even if it were true? No, you'd want him to fuck right off back to Iraq and pay massive reparations for all the damage caused.
Ok, we are sort of close on this one...but....BOTH Iraq and US want Iraq to be self sufficient. So guess what the poll result is going to be when you ask "Do you want US to leave"? Eveyone wants the US out of Iraq, including Iraq...but RIGHT NOW? Do I deny there are reasons to be there? No.PureFodder wrote:
As far as the demands of the overwhelming majority of the populace goes, go look up any poll of the Iraqi populace, they all have a majority wanting the coalition forces out of their country. There's simply no question if a referendum were allowed to take place in Iraq over the issue what the outcome would be. They want the invaders to leave. If we're even remotely serious about spreading democracy to Iraq, surely this is the most significant thing to act upon. The US/UK should have absolutely no say whatsoever over when they leave. It's not their country so it's not up to them. If the populace want them to stay, then they will stay, if they want them to bugger off tomorrow, then bugger off tomorrow they will. Otherwise drop all pretense that this has anything to do with helping the Iraqi populace or spreading democracy, accept that we are imperialist scumbags.
The question is when do they leave. I said this isn't happy news BTW. I also stated I believe you can do a peaceful transition without being imperialistic.
This thread is more about general bitching the same tune instead of the reality of what would happen if the US left town at the drop of a hat.
500 people are not meeting violent deaths every month in Ireland. Not even during the Troubles were 500 dying every month. ANyway, it's time for beer.Kmarion wrote:
Then you were simply pointing out the obvious. I could pull random stories from anywhere in the world to demonstrate the inherent violent nature of humans.CameronPoe wrote:
Goes to show I wasn't hiding anything. I could have cut and paste a tailored post for my argument.Kmarion wrote:
Because I wasn't questioning your logic there. Half of your updates didn't make sense with your train of thought.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-06 09:27:52)
My point was that a drop in violence would effect popular opinion. Which one are you challenging? The drop in violence or the impact of increased security?CameronPoe wrote:
500 people are not meeting violent deaths every month in Ireland. Not even during the Troubles were 500 dying every month. ANyway, it's time for beer.Kmarion wrote:
Then you were simply pointing out the obvious. I could pull random stories from anywhere in the world to demonstrate the inherent violent nature of humans.CameronPoe wrote:
Goes to show I wasn't hiding anything. I could have cut and paste a tailored post for my argument.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
What also makes sense is that you realize that during the period of lower violence, what's the Iraqi government doing? Improving.CameronPoe wrote:
More troops in - deaths go down. Troops go home - deaths go up. At 151,000 troops stationed in Iraq, in peace time, you have a monthly death toll at the moment of at least 500 Iraqis. Sustainable? Worth rejoicing? Is this surge actually a permanent increase of your stretched military? Cos if it isn't then the 'gains' will be shortlived. The US military is not the solution to this. It will never eradicate the problem it created.Pug wrote:
So do you deny that the "Surge" is working?
Versus abandoning the region for anarchy?
See the whole forest for once.
Seams us crazy leftist conspiracy theorists were right. No doubt the people telling us crazy leftist conspiracy theorists that this wouldn't happen are now going to argue it is a good thing and is all about providing democracy.
Democracy................this shits on democracy.
Way to ensure a continued stalemate of, more Innocent dead, more terrorists, more coalition solders dead, more destabilization of surrounding countries, more world wide Islamic jihad and last but not least more cheep oil.
Ahhh well, at least it looks like pops isn't going to have to sell his V8 6L Dodge after all.
Democracy................this shits on democracy.
Way to ensure a continued stalemate of, more Innocent dead, more terrorists, more coalition solders dead, more destabilization of surrounding countries, more world wide Islamic jihad and last but not least more cheep oil.
Ahhh well, at least it looks like pops isn't going to have to sell his V8 6L Dodge after all.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 … 061202.htmOP article wrote:
The deal would also cement the US military presence in Iraq and could prevent Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential hopeful, from making good on campaign promises to withdraw US troops if elected.
Oh snap!Presumptive Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama has sought to distance himself from his campaign statements on troop withdrawal from Iraq, apparently under pressure from Republican rival John McCain's repeated questioning of his stand.
In an interview to CNN after clinching the Presidential nomination, Obama did not rule out the possibility that conditions on the ground could alter his policy of immediately beginning a troop withdrawal.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Always good to know I made a good decision months ago. Thanks for the reminder Cam.CameronPoe wrote:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E7746317-B6C6-4D42-B2DD-03BCDBC89D02.htm
We all know it but now it looks like 'Imperialist USA' might actually be made official.
I told you and the DS&T thread readers' years ago we had constructed permanent bases in Iraq. This "news" is nothing new, and your constant prejudice, dribble is nothing new either.
I know you cant be friends and make everyone happy, its a two-way street.
btw Capitalism ftw
I<3 Iraq
Dont mean to offend, but all of you that think he could possibly have the power to follow this campaign promise and stance, are as high as the clouds.Kmarion wrote:
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 … 061202.htmOP article wrote:
The deal would also cement the US military presence in Iraq and could prevent Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential hopeful, from making good on campaign promises to withdraw US troops if elected.Oh snap!Presumptive Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama has sought to distance himself from his campaign statements on troop withdrawal from Iraq, apparently under pressure from Republican rival John McCain's repeated questioning of his stand.
In an interview to CNN after clinching the Presidential nomination, Obama did not rule out the possibility that conditions on the ground could alter his policy of immediately beginning a troop withdrawal.
Strangely enough I couldn't give a flying fuck for a rolling doughnut what some liberal in Ireland thinks of my country, nor anyone else. The US does what the US does, if you don't like it go on some internet forum and pout.
Carry on.
Carry on.
Too bad there aren't any opposing views...oh wait:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24988101/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_ … pe/us_iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01542.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/p … siraq.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/world … ocker.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/06/ … 6diplo.php
http://www.rationalreview.com/content/47173
There's a lot more. And none of them are from Fox News to compare against Al Jazeera for bias cancellation.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24988101/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_ … pe/us_iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01542.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/p … siraq.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/world … ocker.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/06/ … 6diplo.php
http://www.rationalreview.com/content/47173
There's a lot more. And none of them are from Fox News to compare against Al Jazeera for bias cancellation.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
HehLotta_Drool wrote:
Strangely enough I couldn't give a flying fuck for a rolling doughnut what some liberal in Ireland thinks of my country, nor anyone else. The US does what the US does, if you don't like it go on some internet forum and pout.
Carry on.
Yes but at least try and do some sort of fact checking or research before you post up erroneous reports from Aljazeerah and declare it "Imperialism"
Some information on the SOF agreements
...U.S. officials, meanwhile, have repeatedly stated that neither agreement will tie the hands of the next administration. "They will not establish permanent bases in Iraq, nor will they specify in any fashion the number of American forces to be stationed there," Ambassador David Satterfield, a senior adviser on Iraq policy, told lawmakers in March 2008.
...Patrick Cockburn, the Independent newspaper's veteran Iraq correspondent, writes that the agreement being pushed by the United States would give Americans "long-term use of more than fifty bases in Iraq," an assertion Ambassador Crocker calls "flatly untrue." The framework, if signed, would also give U.S. troops "a free hand to carry out arrests and conduct military activities in Iraq without consulting the Baghdad government," Cockburn reports. Yale's Hathaway, meanwhile, says public statements by administration officials have led her to believe contentious security details will remain part of the negotiated SOFA. The strategic framework "basically appears to be everything else" outlined in the November 2007 declaration of principles, she says.
Administration officials, for their part, have said the framework will broadly address issues outlined in the November 2007 agreement. Political and economic items make up the bulk of that document, including vows to increase the flow of foreign investment into Iraq; foster debt reduction; and encourage cultural, education, and scientific exchanges between the countries. Wedgwood, of Johns Hopkins University, says the Iraq framework appears to be a reiteration of the framework the United States signed with Afghanistan in 2005.
Looks like FEOS beat me to it, but there is a variety of links and information there so at least people can make up their own minds.
Last edited by Vax (2008-06-06 13:43:00)
No offense taken. I was addressing his intent, not ability.(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
Dont mean to offend, but all of you that think he could possibly have the power to follow this campaign promise and stance, are as high as the clouds.Kmarion wrote:
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 … 061202.htmOP article wrote:
The deal would also cement the US military presence in Iraq and could prevent Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential hopeful, from making good on campaign promises to withdraw US troops if elected.Oh snap!Presumptive Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama has sought to distance himself from his campaign statements on troop withdrawal from Iraq, apparently under pressure from Republican rival John McCain's repeated questioning of his stand.
In an interview to CNN after clinching the Presidential nomination, Obama did not rule out the possibility that conditions on the ground could alter his policy of immediately beginning a troop withdrawal.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
what the fuck has happened to us?!?!?!?!!
that's all I have to say.
it just makes me sad that a country I feel I should have pride in has to be an asshole!
that's all I have to say.
it just makes me sad that a country I feel I should have pride in has to be an asshole!
We should put the bases right next to the refinery and drilling infrastructure in Iraq. If we're gonna stick around, we need to do it near the reason why we entered in the first place.
Other than oil, Iraq is pretty worthless anyway.
Other than oil, Iraq is pretty worthless anyway.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Pretty much crickets chirping...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular