Are they just a cop out by the motor industry or will they have a big part to play in the industry?
If it saves fuel and works it's good
but what baout the cfact that making a prius produces more CO2 than making a jeep wrangler 10 years ago and most diesels get mor MPG than a prius anyway.
Dear God please let my karma one day reach 100, whether it be tomorrow or 1000 years in the future i want it to happen.
An interesting future prospect. At the moment they aren't too flash, but give it a decade and I think we'll see them much more advanced.
I don't think shortsighted views such as above help, though.
I don't think shortsighted views such as above help, though.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
How is looking at the actual pollution budget over the lifetime of the vehicle shortsighted? It's the opposite.Spark wrote:
An interesting future prospect. At the moment they aren't too flash, but give it a decade and I think we'll see them much more advanced.
I don't think shortsighted views such as above help, though.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
That is not fact and the Prius vs Hummer theory has been disproved earlier ...wensleydale8 wrote:
but what baout the cfact that making a prius produces more CO2 than making a jeep wrangler 10 years ago and most diesels get mor MPG than a prius anyway.
You have small diesel engines that produces less CO2 than the Prius but have other emissions that more than equals the footprint of the Prius ...
Hybrid cars like the Prius is pr date the best solution ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Ill stick to burning fossil fuel kthx.
Also what I can't understand is the british government taxes you on how much CO2 your car produces so on this basis if your car has a inefficient engine so it isn't complete combustion less co2 will be produced but if you have a more efficient engine more C02 will be produced
and example is the honda S2000's 2.0vtec engine it emits 236 on the C02 this is becasue it is efficient and the less efficient 2.0 i-vtec in the accord saloon emits 176CO2
now does this mean if car engines are modified for incomplete combustion less co2 will be produce but more CO will be produced as a direct result.
Also what I can't understand is the british government taxes you on how much CO2 your car produces so on this basis if your car has a inefficient engine so it isn't complete combustion less co2 will be produced but if you have a more efficient engine more C02 will be produced
and example is the honda S2000's 2.0vtec engine it emits 236 on the C02 this is becasue it is efficient and the less efficient 2.0 i-vtec in the accord saloon emits 176CO2
now does this mean if car engines are modified for incomplete combustion less co2 will be produce but more CO will be produced as a direct result.
Last edited by wensleydale8 (2008-06-10 04:11:14)
Dear God please let my karma one day reach 100, whether it be tomorrow or 1000 years in the future i want it to happen.
Not taking production of the car into account, Hybrids are great in inner city stop start driving as most will allow the petrol engine to be turned off when its not needed ( ie at the lights or in a traffic jam), as well as sharing the load through normal driving. They can usually go short distance using electric only. On the highway or on a long distance diesel wins every time. The current world record for most economical car is the Peugeot 308 diesel.
Looking at it financially, it will take many years of driving or many kilometers for a hybrid to break even. Having said that, its a very good intermedeary step between fossil fuels and the fully electric car. Car makers can have a bet each way, that is, they can develop the battery and electric motor technology while using the petrol motor to fill in the technological gaps. Maybe even phasing out the petrol engine eventually.
Although I have nothing against hybrids, my choice would be diesel, as well driven diesels often get over 1000 k's per tank with no worries. Maybe the next answer is a diesel hybrid
Looking at it financially, it will take many years of driving or many kilometers for a hybrid to break even. Having said that, its a very good intermedeary step between fossil fuels and the fully electric car. Car makers can have a bet each way, that is, they can develop the battery and electric motor technology while using the petrol motor to fill in the technological gaps. Maybe even phasing out the petrol engine eventually.
Although I have nothing against hybrids, my choice would be diesel, as well driven diesels often get over 1000 k's per tank with no worries. Maybe the next answer is a diesel hybrid
They get shit mileage in extremely hot climes.
Fuel would have to be much higher for the cost to be worth it. My preference would be a diesel that I could recycle old cooking oil for. Unfortunately I don't have the time, money, or space for such an enterprise.
Fuel would have to be much higher for the cost to be worth it. My preference would be a diesel that I could recycle old cooking oil for. Unfortunately I don't have the time, money, or space for such an enterprise.
@Burnwhale: You got it a tad wrong ... pure electric cars are great for inner cities, not sure about the other hybrids but the Toyota Prius has no limitations to inner city or similar, with it's hybrid electric/1,5 liter petrol engine and the collecting kinetic energy of brake power into the batteries and other features it functions way better than how you describe it ... Toyota has so far rejected the thought of a Diesel Hybrid for reasons i'm not familiar with ...
Most of the tech Peugeot is putting into the 308 they have bought from Toyota
Do take production into account and hybrids are still the best solution until something better comes along ...
Most of the tech Peugeot is putting into the 308 they have bought from Toyota
Do take production into account and hybrids are still the best solution until something better comes along ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Too hard to make a diesal Hybrid. A diesel runs with spark plugs, but by 'contact points,' that take the heat of the engine itself to set off the gas. It takes more energy to start a diesel in the morning than it does an unleaded car. In a diesel, you have a little "wait to start" light that lights up until the contact points are warm enough to allow the car to start. If you keep shutting off the engine at stoplights and such, you are actually using more energy than you are saving.Varegg wrote:
@Burnwhale: You got it a tad wrong ... pure electric cars are great for inner cities, not sure about the other hybrids but the Toyota Prius has no limitations to inner city or similar, with it's hybrid electric/1,5 liter petrol engine and the collecting kinetic energy of brake power into the batteries and other features it functions way better than how you describe it ... Toyota has so far rejected the thought of a Diesel Hybrid for reasons i'm not familiar with ...
Most of the tech Peugeot is putting into the 308 they have bought from Toyota
Do take production into account and hybrids are still the best solution until something better comes along ...
What's all this about CO2? Everyone knows that the primary output pollutant of a hybrid is smug.
Not to mention that you'd be an asshole to everyone else waiting to get through the bloody intersection while you dicked around with your f*cking ignition.imortal wrote:
If you keep shutting off the engine at stoplights and such, you are actually using more energy than you are saving.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-06-10 08:04:21)
If Hybrid cars offer better mileage and cheaper running costs, fuck everything else. Hybrid is the way forward, with the future ultimately being pure electric cars.
In 2009 F1 cars will be using regenerative braking systems and so will effectively be hybrid cars too. Expect big jumps in technology when F1 comes into play with this.
In 2009 F1 cars will be using regenerative braking systems and so will effectively be hybrid cars too. Expect big jumps in technology when F1 comes into play with this.
Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-06-10 08:08:52)
You think hybrid owners care about that?unnamednewbie13 wrote:
What's all this about CO2? Everyone knows that the primary output pollutant of a hybrid is smug.Not to mention that you'd be an asshole to everyone else waiting to get through the bloody intersection while you dicked around with your f*cking ignition.imortal wrote:
If you keep shutting off the engine at stoplights and such, you are actually using more energy than you are saving.
It can easily be argued that a hybrid battery has a shorter lifespan than say, a hummer. When one starts considering the longevity of a typical American made gasoline sedan, we aren't talking that long of a life anyhow. LUCKY if you get 200 grand out of one. Either way, the reason hybrids are important is that it shows a willingness to change. Hybrids aren't the end all, but change doesn't happen quickly in the automobile industry...something like a 10 year fiscal turn around; minimum. The vehicles themselves generally achieve very high mpg ratings, especially in light of the recent mpg rating revision. Due to the revision, several of your more efficient cars suddenly became less efficient (rather, we just got the real sticker number.) If you argue for diesel, consider both the cost of diesel and the above posted energy input when starting the engine. Furthermore, Japanese manufacturers are much less invested in diesel engines than say, the Germans. Furthermore, hybrids are not only about the engine. Several of them employ the use of a more favorable diameter wheel, as well as a lower rolling friction tread. These factors have a lot to do with increased efficiency as well. It doesn't take much to keep a car going at speed, its all about the energy input of getting to speed. That is the benefit of the hybrid electric type vehicle, if the vehicle can charge its own batteries via either kinetic energy captured from the braking system, or the gasoline engine itself, the electric motor can supplement power at greater efficiency than ANY gasoline motor.
Anyhow, when you start getting into energy input for nearly any product, it's enough to make you shit your pants and move out to the woods.
Anyhow, when you start getting into energy input for nearly any product, it's enough to make you shit your pants and move out to the woods.
I don't like half finished work.
I don't like hybrid cars.
I don't like hybrid cars.
The Prius takes bout 5 years to recoup the extra cost the rest is 10+ years with one Hybrid taking 20 years. Hybrid would be great around town, but they suck at just about everything else. Hybrid FTL unless you are rich and just want to be a bit greener.. Wait isn't there that issues with the batteries and thier damage to the environment during production. Never mind, Hybrid vehicles suck.BN wrote:
Are they just a cop out by the motor industry or will they have a big part to play in the industry?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
In fact, a hybrid battery is only estimated to last about 5 years, and costs in the neighborhood of $8000.liquix wrote:
It can easily be argued that a hybrid battery has a shorter lifespan than say, a hummer. When one starts considering the longevity of a typical American made gasoline sedan, we aren't talking that long of a life anyhow. LUCKY if you get 200 grand out of one. Either way, the reason hybrids are important is that it shows a willingness to change. Hybrids aren't the end all, but change doesn't happen quickly in the automobile industry...something like a 10 year fiscal turn around; minimum. The vehicles themselves generally achieve very high mpg ratings, especially in light of the recent mpg rating revision. Due to the revision, several of your more efficient cars suddenly became less efficient (rather, we just got the real sticker number.) If you argue for diesel, consider both the cost of diesel and the above posted energy input when starting the engine. Furthermore, Japanese manufacturers are much less invested in diesel engines than say, the Germans. Furthermore, hybrids are not only about the engine. Several of them employ the use of a more favorable diameter wheel, as well as a lower rolling friction tread. These factors have a lot to do with increased efficiency as well. It doesn't take much to keep a car going at speed, its all about the energy input of getting to speed. That is the benefit of the hybrid electric type vehicle, if the vehicle can charge its own batteries via either kinetic energy captured from the braking system, or the gasoline engine itself, the electric motor can supplement power at greater efficiency than ANY gasoline motor.
Anyhow, when you start getting into energy input for nearly any product, it's enough to make you shit your pants and move out to the woods.
But hybrids are only meant to be an interim technology.
Soon will be Stage 2 hybrids (where the car is an electric car with a gas or diesel generator, but the electrics provide the motive force, electrics, and finally fuel cells.
So tell me what happens in 30 years when all these cars with batteries have to be crushed and reclaimed. if a car with a battery is in an accident, will we need Hazmat teams out there to help with the environmental cleanup?
all this talk about saving the environment is great and all but i wonder if some things are being done as feel good measures rather than doing what really should be done. eg: CCFL bulbs versus regular bulbs. CCFL has mercury in it which is extremely toxic. perhaps it is better to use LED lighting as an alternative.
anyone else have any thoughts as to the actual negative environmental impact of 'going green' in some of these cases?
all this talk about saving the environment is great and all but i wonder if some things are being done as feel good measures rather than doing what really should be done. eg: CCFL bulbs versus regular bulbs. CCFL has mercury in it which is extremely toxic. perhaps it is better to use LED lighting as an alternative.
anyone else have any thoughts as to the actual negative environmental impact of 'going green' in some of these cases?
electric cars? where does the electricity come from for these cars? from the outlet in the wall? hopefully we'll be able to build enough clean power generating plants to support this. in CA, our power grids are already stretched thin as it is. people are complaining about building new power plants using the NIMBY argument (not in my backyard), hate clean burning coal plants (emissions are still too high), solar is extremely expensive, and also don't like nuke power. we can build windmills but then the bird lovers out there complain about the hundreds of spotted owls that get chewed up by the turbines. hydro dams kill fish, etc. it's like every alternative has someone complaining. you can't win.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
If Hybrid cars offer better mileage and cheaper running costs, fuck everything else. Hybrid is the way forward, with the future ultimately being pure electric cars.
In 2009 F1 cars will be using regenerative braking systems and so will effectively be hybrid cars too. Expect big jumps in technology when F1 comes into play with this.
honestly, this problem needs to be looked at objectively and without all these petty special interest people screwing it up.
it's great to be more responsible, but to do that we will ALL have to foot the bill. new tech like this is certainly not going to be cheap.
I would rather use an air powered car over a hybrid any day. Having a hybrid car is a trend. I guess people feel better saving 2-5mpg more and paying up to 10k more over the gas powered model. If you want to save money and great mpg buy a diesel powered car and convert it to run on vegetable oil. The European people are lucky that they get many options to choose from.
What extra cost ?DBBrinson1 wrote:
The Prius takes bout 5 years to recoup the extra cost the rest is 10+ years with one Hybrid taking 20 years. Hybrid would be great around town, but they suck at just about everything else. Hybrid FTL unless you are rich and just want to be a bit greener.. Wait isn't there that issues with the batteries and thier damage to the environment during production. Never mind, Hybrid vehicles suck.BN wrote:
Are they just a cop out by the motor industry or will they have a big part to play in the industry?
Hybrid ftl ? .. you obviously don't know what you are talking about, what is this everything else they suck at ?
A Prius costs roughly the same as a similar sized car, the batteries does not cause more damage to the environment than a normal battery for any other car so no issues there ... pick up a brochure at your local Toyota dealer and read up a little and then crosscheck that with whatever source you can find ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
How about not getting so sucked in by publicity that you blind yourself to the obvious. In order to find the additional cost of a hybid, you have to look at a model that has both a standard and a hybrid model.Varegg wrote:
What extra cost ?DBBrinson1 wrote:
The Prius takes bout 5 years to recoup the extra cost the rest is 10+ years with one Hybrid taking 20 years. Hybrid would be great around town, but they suck at just about everything else. Hybrid FTL unless you are rich and just want to be a bit greener.. Wait isn't there that issues with the batteries and thier damage to the environment during production. Never mind, Hybrid vehicles suck.BN wrote:
Are they just a cop out by the motor industry or will they have a big part to play in the industry?
Hybrid ftl ? .. you obviously don't know what you are talking about, what is this everything else they suck at ?
A Prius costs roughly the same as a similar sized car, the batteries does not cause more damage to the environment than a normal battery for any other car so no issues there ... pick up a brochure at your local Toyota dealer and read up a little and then crosscheck that with whatever source you can find ...
Honda: http://automobiles.honda.com/civic/
Civic (standard), starts at $15,010
Civic (hybrid), starts at $22,600
Toyota: http://www.toyota.com/camry/trims-prices.html
Camry (standard) $18,920
Camry (hybrid) $25,650
Second, hybrids are very good for gas milege, in the city. On the highway, the hybrids gas milage is very similar to comparable vehicles.
Third, there are huge batteries in a hybrid vehicle. All batteries are considered hazordous, and should not be disposed of in the trash, although nearly all of us ignore this. http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/batteries.php
And finally. In order for a hybrid purchase to be profitable, you have to save more in gas savings over the life of the vehicle than you spent in excess to purchase it. This does, of course, ignores intrest and inflation. You also must make sure that the replacement of the batteries are covered under your warranty, or else be prepared to fork over 6-9 grand for a replacement. And we will gloss over disposal fees (if you have tried to get rid of an old tire, you know what I mean).
Last edited by imortal (2008-06-10 11:36:40)
Yeah, that's a problem. Really now we should be investing heavily on improving solar power (especially the USA, you guys have some nice areas for that shit on a massive scale) and Nuclear power (again, with modern technology there shouldn't be any problems). I mean France has about 75% of its energy from Nuclear power. People who run their cars from Electricity in France are almost totally independent from all this Oil shit that's going on. France will probably be one of the first countries to incorporate Electric cars on a big scale, seeing as they're already generating electricity on a large scale without fossil fuels. They'll be nice and independent (more or less) from OPEC whilst we're all struggling with these crazy prices.CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:
electric cars? where does the electricity come from for these cars? from the outlet in the wall? hopefully we'll be able to build enough clean power generating plants to support this. in CA, our power grids are already stretched thin as it is. people are complaining about building new power plants using the NIMBY argument (not in my backyard), hate clean burning coal plants (emissions are still too high), solar is extremely expensive, and also don't like nuke power. we can build windmills but then the bird lovers out there complain about the hundreds of spotted owls that get chewed up by the turbines. hydro dams kill fish, etc. it's like every alternative has someone complaining. you can't win.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
If Hybrid cars offer better mileage and cheaper running costs, fuck everything else. Hybrid is the way forward, with the future ultimately being pure electric cars.
In 2009 F1 cars will be using regenerative braking systems and so will effectively be hybrid cars too. Expect big jumps in technology when F1 comes into play with this.
honestly, this problem needs to be looked at objectively and without all these petty special interest people screwing it up.
it's great to be more responsible, but to do that we will ALL have to foot the bill. new tech like this is certainly not going to be cheap.
Who's laughing now
In Norway and most European countries i know about the price difference is close to nothing.
Gas consumption is on average lower than comparable cars, and we do talk about average consumption not only inner cities.
Not sure about the other hybrid batteries but the ones from Toyota produces about the same amount of waste as a normal battery and considering the size that's pretty awesome.
In Europe there is a 8 year warranty on all hybrid parts on the Prius, the manufactorer are pretty sure they will last atleast twice as long and the price of a new batterypack is affordable ... about 3-4 grand in Norway pr date.
The disposal fee for both batteries and tires are prepaid so no extra dollars to get rid of them, it's already a part of the price when you buy it ...
Gas consumption is on average lower than comparable cars, and we do talk about average consumption not only inner cities.
Not sure about the other hybrid batteries but the ones from Toyota produces about the same amount of waste as a normal battery and considering the size that's pretty awesome.
In Europe there is a 8 year warranty on all hybrid parts on the Prius, the manufactorer are pretty sure they will last atleast twice as long and the price of a new batterypack is affordable ... about 3-4 grand in Norway pr date.
The disposal fee for both batteries and tires are prepaid so no extra dollars to get rid of them, it's already a part of the price when you buy it ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................