Democracy is officially dead in Europe

2008-06-16 15:52:35

#1

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

Democracy is dead in Europe. The only EU nations in which democracy still exists is the Republic of Ireland and possibly the Czech Republic. Despite France and the Netherlands rejecting the EU Constitution and the Irish rejecting the reheated constitution in democratic referendums the official line from the EU is 'EU parliaments should keep ratifying the treaty and we'll find a way of ignoring the Irish vote.' The EU has been exposed for what it is: an elaborate toy for faceless Eurocrats to design and tweak with little or no grassroots input, approval or accountability. I was once extremely pro-EU. I now concede that I was wrong to be. Fuck the EU. I prefer democracy.

Gordon Brown will now have the House of Lords in the UK ratify the treaty he knows the general public in the UK would never in a million years vote yes to in a democratic referendum. There's democracy for you.

Vaclav Klaus: You have my respect.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-16 15:54:27)

2008-06-16 15:53:32

#2

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

I wish this was the time to say I told you so, but Ill give it a few more years.

from my understanding of european history. you guys have too many differing personalities to successfully unite a continent.

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-06-16 15:54:47)

2008-06-16 15:56:12

#3

(T)eflon(S)hadow: R.I.P. Neda; +456|7251|Grapevine, TX

I was glad to hear that Ireland dont go down that dark path. I would hardly agree that democracy is dead though.

2008-06-16 15:56:25

#4

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|7043|London, England

I know, it's fucked up. I just want to see what fucked up idea they'll come up with to get this thing through, and then the bullshit excuses they'll make to the public. They're willing to violate their own laws to get this through. Man, Europe has never been united. It never will. Stop trying.

2008-06-16 15:59:39

#5

Lotta_Drool: Spit; +350|6605|Ireland

I thought Cam was socialist? He should be for this, a Cuban dictatorship running Europe. Maybe they would even invade Israel with the Euro-Storm Troopers and free Palestine.

2008-06-16 16:00:59

#6

.Sup: be nice; +2,646|6875|The Twilight Zone

Cam wrote:
Democracy is officially dead in Europe

Thats the truest sentence I've heard in the past 1 month regarding politics. +1

https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png

2008-06-16 16:02:15

#7

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6827|North Carolina

Cam, isn't it true that the EU is a lot of the reason for Ireland's economic growth over the last 10 to 15 years?

2008-06-16 16:03:08

#8

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

I think more to do with the shape of the global economy and advances in communications technology. globalisation is here with or without the EU.

2008-06-16 16:05:20

#9

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6827|North Carolina

Countries like Ireland received a ton of investment from major EU nations like the U.K., Germany and France. Had it not been for the EU's streamlining of financial policy, it seems like Ireland would have had a tougher time getting so much funding... right?

2008-06-16 16:08:57

#10

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

Turquoise wrote:
Cam, isn't it true that the EU is a lot of the reason for Ireland's economic growth over the last 10 to 15 years?

Yes but that EU was one everyone was happy with. A loose association of nations. We are now a net contributor to the EU kitty. We are now funding the likes of Poland, Lithuania and Malta. We are repaying our 'debt' as it were. We didn't make a Faustian pact here though. We didn't sell our souls. I thought we were in a democracy. I was wrong. The EU is turning into something only German people and professional European politicians (including Irish ones) want.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-16 16:10:40)

2008-06-16 16:11:32

#11

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

Turquoise wrote:
Countries like Ireland received a ton of investment from major EU nations like the U.K., Germany and France. Had it not been for the EU's streamlining of financial policy, it seems like Ireland would have had a tougher time getting so much funding... right?

Ill accept that. but, if the EU didnt exist, do you not think Ireland would as successful economically as it is now.

2008-06-16 16:11:51

#12

ATG: Banned; +5,233|6951|Global Command

Watch out in ten years we'll be asked to swallow an AEU.

Or I guess, figuring the state of our dollar it may be a EAU

2008-06-16 16:12:43

#13

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

it wont last, just like the EU wont. Just like NATO wont. Just like the UN wont.

2008-06-16 16:13:09

#14

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6827|North Carolina

CameronPoe wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Cam, isn't it true that the EU is a lot of the reason for Ireland's economic growth over the last 10 to 15 years?
Yes but that EU was one everyone was happy with. A loose association of nations. We are now a net contributor to the EU kitty. We are now funding the likes of Poland, Lithuania and Malta. We are repaying our 'debt' as it were. We didn't make a Faustian pact here though. We didn't sell our souls. I thought we were in a democracy. I was wrong. The EU is turning into something only German people and professional European politicians (including Irish ones) want.

Personally, the condition of paying back what you got doesn't sound so bad to me. I'm not against collectivism if it's practical.

2008-06-16 16:14:35

#15

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6827|North Carolina

God Save the Queen wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Countries like Ireland received a ton of investment from major EU nations like the U.K., Germany and France. Had it not been for the EU's streamlining of financial policy, it seems like Ireland would have had a tougher time getting so much funding... right?
Ill accept that. but, if the EU didnt exist, do you not think Ireland would as successful economically as it is now.

Cam would know that better than me. I would assume not though.

2008-06-16 16:16:58

#16

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

Turquoise wrote:
God Save the Queen wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Countries like Ireland received a ton of investment from major EU nations like the U.K., Germany and France. Had it not been for the EU's streamlining of financial policy, it seems like Ireland would have had a tougher time getting so much funding... right?
Ill accept that. but, if the EU didnt exist, do you not think Ireland would as successful economically as it is now.
Cam would know that better than me. I would assume not though.

I think we would be worse off but not that worse off. We are very close to the US economically and being a predominantly English speaking country on the doorstep of western Europe we would have seen a large amount of inward investment anyway. We would have been one of those late blooming 'untapped markets' sooner or later.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-16 16:17:45)

2008-06-16 16:18:44

#17

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

I think so too cam.

cant really give credit to the EU for china's economic boom either.

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-06-16 16:19:16)

2008-06-16 16:29:21

#18

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6941|Πάϊ

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:
I was glad to hear that Ireland dont go down that dark path. I would hardly agree that democracy is dead though.

Well what do you call it when despite the popular vote, the fucking politicians insist on a certain fucking policy which clearly goes against the will of the people in almost every European country?

And may I note here that there were peaceful demonstrations against the Lisbon Treaty in nearly all major European capitals. Yet, the plan went along anyway. So next time when the people will riot don't ask why.

Also, funding has nothing to do with it. Indeed countries like Ireland and Greece did receive large amounts as funds. That doesn't mean we now have to bend over.

_ƒ³

2008-06-16 17:57:12

#19

paul386: Member; +22|6667

"Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. "
- Milton Friedman

2008-06-16 19:32:34

#20

lowing: Banned; +1,662|7073|USA

CameronPoe wrote:
Democracy is dead in Europe. The only EU nations in which democracy still exists is the Republic of Ireland and possibly the Czech Republic. Despite France and the Netherlands rejecting the EU Constitution and the Irish rejecting the reheated constitution in democratic referendums the official line from the EU is 'EU parliaments should keep ratifying the treaty and we'll find a way of ignoring the Irish vote.' The EU has been exposed for what it is: an elaborate toy for faceless Eurocrats to design and tweak with little or no grassroots input, approval or accountability. I was once extremely pro-EU. I now concede that I was wrong to be. Fuck the EU. I prefer democracy.

Gordon Brown will now have the House of Lords in the UK ratify the treaty he knows the general public in the UK would never in a million years vote yes to in a democratic referendum. There's democracy for you.

Vaclav Klaus: You have my respect.

Could please educate me, in a nutshell, as to what the sticking points are for the people, in regards to the constitution

2008-06-16 19:37:20

#21

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6575|what

lowing;

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=103189

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=103100

there was another very specific post that highlighted everything, i think cam poe posted it. search mate.

edit:

here

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=101863

Last edited by TheAussieReaper (2008-06-16 19:38:16)

2008-06-16 19:53:03

#22

lowing: Banned; +1,662|7073|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:
lowing;

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=103189

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=103100

there was another very specific post that highlighted everything, i think cam poe posted it. search mate.

edit:

here

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=101863

Hey thanks,
So simplified, by this going theough, the individual nations of Europw would loose their identities to a central EU govt. THe fear being that this central govt. would not speak very effectively for the people of each nation and their individual interests? The EU is looking to adopt a US style central govt.Is that about right?

2008-06-17 00:12:24

#23

SpaceApollyon: Scratch where it itches; +41|6942|Finland

oug wrote:
...Indeed countries like Ireland and Greece did receive large amounts as funds. That doesn't mean we now have to bend over.

But isn't that exactly what has to happen for the EU to function now that it has 27 member nations? The richest have to bend over for the poor. For the greater good of Europe, No?

Its seems to me that with a broken voting system and with people having only their nations interest at heart, this union is about to hit the rocks.

2008-06-17 00:48:46

#24

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

lowing wrote:
TheAussieReaper wrote:
lowing;

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=103189

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=103100

there was another very specific post that highlighted everything, i think cam poe posted it. search mate.

edit:

here

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=101863
Hey thanks,
So simplified, by this going theough, the individual nations of Europw would loose their identities to a central EU govt. THe fear being that this central govt. would not speak very effectively for the people of each nation and their individual interests? The EU is looking to adopt a US style central govt.Is that about right?

Essentially yes. Watering down or taking away national government's vetoes in 60 policy areas to name but one horrid dilution of the principle of subsidiarity.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-17 00:49:19)

2008-06-17 00:50:22

#25

3lmo: Don't Hassel the Hoff; +345|6725|The | Netherlands

not completely but it's limited for sure!

BF2S Forums Democracy is officially dead in Europe

Cam wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

oug wrote:

lowing wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

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