BF2S Forums Democracy is officially dead in Europe

EFTA ftw tbh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTA

oug wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

oug wrote:

...Indeed countries like Ireland and Greece did receive large amounts as funds. That doesn't mean we now have to bend over.

But isn't that exactly what has to happen for the EU to function now that it has 27 member nations? The richest have to bend over for the poor. For the greater good of Europe, No?

Its seems to me that with a broken voting system and with people having only their nations interest at heart, this union is about to hit the rocks.

The rich never have to bend over for starters...
Like CP said, the EU as a loose connection between countries was a nice thing. But what they're pushing for now is essentially a violation of our democratic rights. The decision makers move further away from the reach of the people when the opposite should be happening.

FOR starters... The rich nations subsidise the poorer ones, thats what I meant with bending over. What did you mean?


AND I'm not a fan of the treaty myself. I agree 100 % what you said about our decision makers. But that doesn't change the fact that the EU we had can be no more, now that more eastern countries and the likes of Poland are in. They can cripple the decision making process of the EU and have done so already. Unanimous voting doesn't work so well with 27 different nations and all their individual interests/agendas at the table.

Braddock wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Hey thanks,
So simplified, by this going theough, the individual nations of Europw would loose their identities to a central EU govt. THe fear being that this central govt. would not speak very effectively for the people of each nation and their individual interests?  The EU is looking to adopt a US style central govt.Is that about right?

Essentially yes. Watering down or taking away national government's vetoes in 60 policy areas to name but one horrid dilution of the principle of subsidiarity.

And all that time lowing was worried that it was the Mooslims who were going to do this to us!

Well Gee, now that ya mention it, lets take a look.

In the US our liberal congress is pandering ( appeasing) to the illegal immigrants of Mexico ( for votes). This is hardly in the best interests of the average citizen, yet, it is happening.

So with a US style central govt. in the EU, is it safe to say that they would pander to those most influencing? As such, given the alarming rate of Islamic immigration to Europe, how could it not become a problem??

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Essentially yes. Watering down or taking away national government's vetoes in 60 policy areas to name but one horrid dilution of the principle of subsidiarity.

And all that time lowing was worried that it was the Mooslims who were going to do this to us!

Well Gee, now that ya mention it, lets take a look.

In the US our liberal congress is pandering ( appeasing) to the illegal immigrants of Mexico ( for votes). This is hardly in the best interests of the average citizen, yet, it is happening.

So with a US style central govt. in the EU, is it safe to say that they would pander to those most influencing? As such, given the alarming rate of Islamic immigration to Europe, how could it not become a problem??

The fact that they are ignoring indigenous Europeans would actually suggest the Muslim population have a snowball in hell's chance of having any clout in European affairs. This undemocratic trend in Europe would suggest that the Euro is king and unless the Muslim population can come up with a way of lining the pockets of the big boys then they better get back to the drawing board.

Nice try though lowing.

no illegal I know cares enough about the process to vote or are afraid of getting deported by showing up.  I live in illegal land.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

So with a US style central govt. in the EU, is it safe to say that they would pander to those most influencing? As such, given the alarming rate of Islamic immigration to Europe, how could it not become a problem??

'Alarming' to lowing but not to very many who actually live in Europe. When 3.5% of the total population of the EU is deemed 'alarming' well it doesn't exactly lend the 'alarmist' much credibility. Now excuse me while I align my prayermat towards Mecca.

hey Cam, belive it or not, but I am not the one who coined the phrase Eurabia, or wrote books on the subject....

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

'Alarming' to lowing but not to very many who actually live in Europe. When 3.5% of the total population of the EU is deemed 'alarming' well it doesn't exactly lend the 'alarmist' much credibility. Now excuse me while I align my prayermat towards Mecca.

hey Cam, belive it or not, but I am not the one who coined the phrase Eurabia, or wrote books on the subject....

I'd be willing to bet it's someone just as off the mark as you are. Some right winger with an agenda that has little or nothing to do with Muslims no doubt.

Or hell,...............it could simply be true.


"According to the United Nations, Europe's Muslim population has doubled in the last decade, and an estimated half a million new immigrants -- most of the from Muslim nations -- arrive every year."

Taken from http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feature … e_muslims/

"However, part of the problem is also due to the mentality of some of the Muslims who move there, yet display no loyalty to their new countries. Immigrant men who divorce their wives according to secular law, but stay married to them according to sharia, Islamic law, represent an increasing problem in the city of Odense, Denmark, according to Erik Simonsen, deputy major in charge of administration. The result is a large number of "single" women who receive welfare support. From other countries, it is known that some Muslim men to do this trick with several women at the same time. Some observers blamed the Muslim riots in France in 2005, accurately described by writer Mark Steyn as the "first welfare funded Jihad in history," on polygamy practiced by Muslim men, paid for by French taxpayers. But also immigrants who are financially independent are cheating, says Simonsen. "80 percent of the immigrant economy in Odense is a black market economy. That's a lot, and it cannot be tolerated, because the law is equal for all."


taken from http://www.globalpolitician.com/22773-euroimmigration

SpaceApollyon wrote:

FOR starters... The rich nations subsidise the poorer ones, thats what I meant with bending over. What did you mean?


AND I'm not a fan of the treaty myself. I agree 100 % what you said about our decision makers. But that doesn't change the fact that the EU we had can be no more, now that more eastern countries and the likes of Poland are in. They can cripple the decision making process of the EU and have done so already. Unanimous voting doesn't work so well with 27 different nations and all their individual interests/agendas at the table.

Bend over as in get fucked

And if the EU couldn't handle the expansion then they shouldn't have done it. The fact that there are now more countries in, doesn't mean that democracy has to be abolished! Like you said, every nation has its own interests and agendas. Those cannot all be wiped under the European matt.   What's gonna happen when Turkey joins?* European Dictatorship?

It's simple man. The majority of european citizens have said no to this treaty more than once, and in many different ways. Yet somehow our representatives ignore that, and keep pursuing it despite repeated denial.





*(rest assured, they will, no matter what we think)

oug wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

FOR starters... The rich nations subsidise the poorer ones, thats what I meant with bending over. What did you mean?


AND I'm not a fan of the treaty myself. I agree 100 % what you said about our decision makers. But that doesn't change the fact that the EU we had can be no more, now that more eastern countries and the likes of Poland are in. They can cripple the decision making process of the EU and have done so already. Unanimous voting doesn't work so well with 27 different nations and all their individual interests/agendas at the table.

Bend over as in get fucked

And if the EU couldn't handle the expansion then they shouldn't have done it. The fact that there are now more countries in, doesn't mean that democracy has to be abolished! Like you said, every nation has its own interests and agendas. Those cannot all be wiped under the European matt.   What's gonna happen when Turkey joins?* European Dictatorship?

It's simple man. The majority of european citizens have said no to this treaty more than once, and in many different ways. Yet somehow our representatives ignore that, and keep pursuing it despite repeated denial.



*(rest assured, they will, no matter what we think)

Ok, now I see what you mean, and I agree. Europeans have said No to federalist EU and that should be the end of that discussion.

Whether it was right or wrong to accept new members seems irrelevant now, what is done is done. This should be a lesson though, especially regarding Turkey's membership. A solution for balancing national interest and "common good" (for lack of a better wording) must be found before we get back on track. Or maybe we never will.

Perhaps a revamp of the voting process with no extra baggage attached? (like thats ever gonna happen in politics )

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Or hell,...............it could simply be true.


"According to the United Nations, Europe's Muslim population has doubled in the last decade, and an estimated half a million new immigrants -- most of the from Muslim nations -- arrive every year."

Taken from http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feature … e_muslims/

"However, part of the problem is also due to the mentality of some of the Muslims who move there, yet display no loyalty to their new countries. Immigrant men who divorce their wives according to secular law, but stay married to them according to sharia, Islamic law, represent an increasing problem in the city of Odense, Denmark, according to Erik Simonsen, deputy major in charge of administration. The result is a large number of "single" women who receive welfare support. From other countries, it is known that some Muslim men to do this trick with several women at the same time. Some observers blamed the Muslim riots in France in 2005, accurately described by writer Mark Steyn as the "first welfare funded Jihad in history," on polygamy practiced by Muslim men, paid for by French taxpayers. But also immigrants who are financially independent are cheating, says Simonsen. "80 percent of the immigrant economy in Odense is a black market economy. That's a lot, and it cannot be tolerated, because the law is equal for all."


taken from http://www.globalpolitician.com/22773-euroimmigration

Perhaps because you're American you don't understand the concept of repatriation of illegal immigrants. It's kind of de rigeur here in Europe. And if a 'doubling' of population means they now stand at 3.5%, of which only a tiny tiny fraction are troublesome, then we have nothing to worry about.

It would appear illegal immigration isn't your problem, immigrants that dilute your identities seem to be the problem
You also didn't comment on the paragraphs that I quoted....Please not miss the point, for example, where half a million new immigrants are pouring in every year mostly from the ME.

The land of denial must be blissfully convenient place to be.

Last edited by lowing (2008-06-17 20:24:03)

CameronPoe wrote:

Perhaps because you're American you don't understand the concept of repatriation of illegal immigrants. It's kind of de rigeur here in Europe. And if a 'doubling' of population means they now stand at 3.5%, of which only a tiny tiny fraction are troublesome, then we have nothing to worry about.

I do understand negative population growth of the naturalized (naturalised?) citizens, increasing immigration from muslim countries, higher birth rates of immigrants and time. 

Frankly, I think the US does a pretty good job of integrating it's consistent 10% or so foreign born citizens into society.  I'm no expert on Europe but I haven't heard glowing tales of integrating immigrants into society in Europe.

Europe is lucky in that regard though, ya'll are used to closed borders and deportation.  The border is too long over here and the resources required to repatriate everyone simply isn't feasible.  And to put it another way...I bet I'd stand out on the streets of Toyko (or Ireland for that matter..."hey you with the tan"), but you'd be hard pressed to point at a Japanese man in the US and be absolutely sure he's an immigrant.

David.P wrote:

@CameronPoe
Jesus christ cam you are really blind sighted by liberal guilt. Oh well too bad. In 20 years time you wont have 1 hundreth of the freedoms you have now. And I think you know why.

What on earth is 'liberal guilt'? Do you guys have a bunch of monkeys out back banging on typewriters coming up with meaningless new labels and phrases?