Obama in suppourt of Israel; Tehran military action still on table

2008-06-05 01:55:06

#26

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

So Obama said you can't take military options off the table when negotiating with Iran...how is that a problem? There are four elements of national power (diplomacy, information, military, and economic) and they have to be used in concert to be effective.

AIPAC impacts US support for Israel. That's it. They are a lobbying group that is apparently very good at their job. There are lots of those. AIPAC has nothing to do with US policy outside of Israel and aspects of ME policy that impact Israel. They don't "run the government"...that's absolutely ludicrous. Unless you think that the only part of the world where the US government is engaged is the ME...then there's just no helping you.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-06-05 01:56:24

#27

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

beerface702 wrote:
obama is two faced, bottom line. He has tweaked his game to conicide with hillary's departure, his tude has changed on war..look back a month ago with his views on iraq, iran the middle east..weeks later it changes..big fat maui FLIP FLOP.

He knows clinton is pretty much TKO for now, and needs to belly up with the likes of Mccain, hence his change.

just my 2 cents

besides i wont vote for a muslim. He has 15% zulu blood with something like 50% muslim and a mix of anglo saxon. Forget it..i want old, dried jerky mccain or touche Paul for prez.

im not racist, but get real..a freakin muslim as president?! are people freaking MAD! Maybe down the road, but this isnt the correct time for those sort of things.

Lol...won't vote for a Muslim but has no problem with a Conservative who just as happily takes it up the ass from the Jewish lobby. Your country is ruled from the Middle East already, the only problem is ye are ruled by the Middle Eastern country that everyone else hates.

EDIT: And by the way,he's not Muslim...though FOX News and co. would love us to believe otherwise. I'm of Celtic descent, it doesn't mean I eat magic salmon to get knowledge or believe in the ancient God Lugh.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-06-05 01:59:32)

2008-06-05 02:16:13

#28

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

FEOS wrote:
So Obama said you can't take military options off the table when negotiating with Iran...how is that a problem? There are four elements of national power (diplomacy, information, military, and economic) and they have to be used in concert to be effective.

AIPAC impacts US support for Israel. That's it. They are a lobbying group that is apparently very good at their job. There are lots of those. AIPAC has nothing to do with US policy outside of Israel and aspects of ME policy that impact Israel. They don't "run the government"...that's absolutely ludicrous. Unless you think that the only part of the world where the US government is engaged is the ME...then there's just no helping you.

The fact is anyone wishing to become President has to keep this lobby group happy and therefore they, to a large extent, decide who can or cannot become President of the United States of America. I don't think anyone hear would be under the illusion that they themselves have control over domestic affairs and so on, but the people who do have control are their bitches.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-06-05 02:16:57)

2008-06-05 02:21:18

#29

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

Braddock wrote:
FEOS wrote:
So Obama said you can't take military options off the table when negotiating with Iran...how is that a problem? There are four elements of national power (diplomacy, information, military, and economic) and they have to be used in concert to be effective.

AIPAC impacts US support for Israel. That's it. They are a lobbying group that is apparently very good at their job. There are lots of those. AIPAC has nothing to do with US policy outside of Israel and aspects of ME policy that impact Israel. They don't "run the government"...that's absolutely ludicrous. Unless you think that the only part of the world where the US government is engaged is the ME...then there's just no helping you.
The fact is anyone wishing to become President has to keep this lobby group happy and therefore they, to a large extent, decide who can or cannot become President of the United States of America. I don't think anyone hear would be under the illusion that they themselves have control over domestic affairs and so on, but the people who do have control are their bitches.

You're confusing correlation with causation. Just because every candidate for US President agrees (at least at the macro level) that Israel deserves the right to exist and defend itself doesn't mean that AIPAC controls who will or won't be President. Sharing (some) common goals is not control.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-06-05 02:25:43

#30

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

FEOS wrote:
You're confusing correlation with causation. Just because every candidate for US President agrees (at least at the macro level) that Israel deserves the right to exist and defend itself doesn't mean that AIPAC controls who will or won't be President. Sharing (some) common goals is not control.

Quite a stretch there FEOS. You can agree with Israel's right to exist without endorsing the agenda of AIPAC, which is far more than just a 'right to exist' agenda and you probably know it.

2008-06-05 02:27:48

#31

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

CameronPoe wrote:
FEOS wrote:
You're confusing correlation with causation. Just because every candidate for US President agrees (at least at the macro level) that Israel deserves the right to exist and defend itself doesn't mean that AIPAC controls who will or won't be President. Sharing (some) common goals is not control.
Quite a stretch there FEOS. You can agree with Israel's right to exist without endorsing the agenda of AIPAC, which is far more than just a 'right to exist' agenda and you probably know it.

I'm not saying it's JUST that. That is the start. But to say AIPAC controls American politics writ large is quite a stretch as well, and you probably know it.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-06-05 02:29:36

#32

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

CameronPoe wrote:
FEOS wrote:
You're confusing correlation with causation. Just because every candidate for US President agrees (at least at the macro level) that Israel deserves the right to exist and defend itself doesn't mean that AIPAC controls who will or won't be President. Sharing (some) common goals is not control.
Quite a stretch there FEOS. You can agree with Israel's right to exist without endorsing the agenda of AIPAC, which is far more than just a 'right to exist' agenda and you probably know it.

What would you say are the chances of someone who disagrees with aspects of the Israeli's side of the argument winning the presidency? I wouldn't bet on them.

2008-06-05 02:29:46

#33

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

FEOS wrote:
CameronPoe wrote:
FEOS wrote:
You're confusing correlation with causation. Just because every candidate for US President agrees (at least at the macro level) that Israel deserves the right to exist and defend itself doesn't mean that AIPAC controls who will or won't be President. Sharing (some) common goals is not control.
Quite a stretch there FEOS. You can agree with Israel's right to exist without endorsing the agenda of AIPAC, which is far more than just a 'right to exist' agenda and you probably know it.
I'm not saying it's JUST that. That is the start. But to say AIPAC controls American politics writ large is quite a stretch as well, and you probably know it.

Of course they don't have total control - but they have more control than any other interest group, and that is to the US' detriment, a fact recognised by many US Jews who have recently set up an opposing lobby group - jstreet.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-05 02:30:18)

2008-06-05 02:32:00

#34

rammunition: Fully Loaded; +143|6284

I had hoped the U.S was getting ready to join the rest of the planet if they elected Obama, but it seems a tad too late. Too many wars, covert ops, pro-Israel obsession, etc have destroyed America's reputation amongst anyone in the world with a brain cell. Obama seems to be no different from the rest when you see past his great speeches.

China will take over as the leading super power, then maybe there will be hope on this planet

Last edited by rammunition (2008-06-05 02:32:46)

2008-06-05 02:45:50

#35

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

rammunition wrote:
China will take over as the leading super power, then maybe there will be hope on this planet

Wishful thinking. China are every bit as bad, every nation with imperialist notions trample on the liberty of others in pursuit of their own interests and goals.

2008-06-05 02:53:10

#36

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6833|'Murka

rammunition wrote:
I had hoped the U.S was getting ready to join the rest of the planet if they elected Obama, but it seems a tad too late. Too many wars, covert ops, pro-Israel obsession, etc have destroyed America's reputation amongst anyone in the world with a brain cell. Obama seems to be no different from the rest when you see past his great speeches.

China will take over as the leading super power, then maybe there will be hope on this planet

I'm sure the Tibetans agree with you.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-06-05 04:08:16

#37

PureFodder: Member; +225|6708

As much fun as it is to say that the US is AIPAC's bitch, in reality they only really have sway over issues that are of little consequence to the US. AIPCA appears to have lots of power, but that's largely because their goals and US elite interests are shared. On any issue where AIPAC and US big business disagree, AIPAC quietly shuts it's mouth and backs down.

Given a candidate that supported Israel but was going to reign in corporate power vs. a candidate that was going to screw over Israel and keep supporting big business, the pro Israel candidate would be destroyed in time for lunch.

2008-06-05 04:11:40

#38

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

PureFodder wrote:
As much fun as it is to say that the US is AIPAC's bitch, in reality they only really have sway over issues that are of little consequence to the US. AIPCA appears to have lots of power, but that's largely because their goals and US elite interests are shared. On any issue where AIPAC and US big business disagree, AIPAC quietly shuts it's mouth and backs down.

Given a candidate that supported Israel but was going to reign in corporate power vs. a candidate that was going to screw over Israel and keep supporting big business, the pro Israel candidate would be destroyed in time for lunch.

AIPAC appears to have a significant influence on the US vis a vis Iran and the wider middle east. AIPAC doesn't give a shit about the welfare of US citizens or US taxation, sanitation, healthcare, etc. THe pivotal factor that has alienated pretty much the entirety of the rest of the world against America is what they have significant partial control of: US foreign policy.

2008-06-05 04:13:16

#39

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6941|Πάϊ

rammunition wrote:
China will take over as the leading super power, then maybe there will be hope on this planet

I cannot help but wonder what on earth makes you think that China or any other superpower will ever be any better. Imperialism unites all the world's cunts.

_ƒ³

2008-06-05 04:37:58

#40

JahManRed: wank; +646|7050|IRELAND

Was waiting to see when this 'free thinking, change orientated' finger puppet would allow the Aipac to stick their hand up his ass.

Threatening a nation thousands of miles away who pose no threat against you with war to get elected. Does elections campaigning ever stop? I wonder how many decision are made in order to simply remain in power and not for the good of the people, just for their and their friends good?

2008-06-05 06:07:43

#41

Pug: UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate; +652|6964|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:
What would you say are the chances of someone who disagrees with aspects of the Israeli's side of the argument winning the presidency? I wouldn't bet on them.

There's a difference between supporting Israel and being controlled by Israel.

Let's follow this thru a bit further:

What would happen if the US didn't do anything for Israel?

2008-06-05 06:34:31

#42

PureFodder: Member; +225|6708

CameronPoe wrote:
PureFodder wrote:
As much fun as it is to say that the US is AIPAC's bitch, in reality they only really have sway over issues that are of little consequence to the US. AIPCA appears to have lots of power, but that's largely because their goals and US elite interests are shared. On any issue where AIPAC and US big business disagree, AIPAC quietly shuts it's mouth and backs down.

Given a candidate that supported Israel but was going to reign in corporate power vs. a candidate that was going to screw over Israel and keep supporting big business, the pro Israel candidate would be destroyed in time for lunch.
AIPAC appears to have a significant influence on the US vis a vis Iran and the wider middle east. AIPAC doesn't give a shit about the welfare of US citizens or US taxation, sanitation, healthcare, etc. THe pivotal factor that has alienated pretty much the entirety of the rest of the world against America is what they have significant partial control of: US foreign policy.

The US has been merrily pissing off the rest of the world by their actions in South America and the far east without any influence from Israel. US strategy in the middle east has remained fairly constant regardless of Israel and is a rough continuation of earlier British and French policies. Helping Israel allows the government to funnel tax dollars into defence companies, gives them tactical staging in the middle east and allows them to exhert influence over the richest energy resources on the planet. If Israel and AIPAC were genuinely harming the interests of US big business then the situation would be easy to solve. You just ring up the companies and explain how their interests are being harmed by AIPAC. They are more than capable of casting AIPAC and all Israeli interests out of the country.

AIPAC appears to have influence mainly because their goals roughly match US government interests. The US however has simply overwhelming influence over Israel. Israel can't do much of anything without US approval. The US can impose almost any policy on Israel at whim by simply threatening to withdraw aid or diplomatic cover.

2008-06-17 13:12:24

#43

Deadmonkiefart: Floccinaucinihilipilificator; +177|7128

rammunition wrote:
China will take over as the leading super power, then maybe there will be hope on this planet

You hate the US so much, that you would rather China takes over as superpower? This has got to be the most supremely idiotic post that I have ever read, period.

2008-06-17 13:48:46

#44

imortal: Member; +240|7087|Austin, TX

Deadmonkiefart wrote:
rammunition wrote:
China will take over as the leading super power, then maybe there will be hope on this planet
You hate the US so much, that you would rather China takes over as superpower? This has got to be the most supremely idiotic post that I have ever read, period.

You must not have read his other posts; this is simply par for the course.

2008-06-17 14:10:16

#45

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

Pug wrote:
Braddock wrote:
What would you say are the chances of someone who disagrees with aspects of the Israeli's side of the argument winning the presidency? I wouldn't bet on them.
There's a difference between supporting Israel and being controlled by Israel.

Let's follow this thru a bit further:

What would happen if the US didn't do anything for Israel?

I would imagine the influential Jewish lobby and their associates would cease all campaign funding and support and encourage all voters under their influence to vote against the incumbent Government.

2008-06-17 14:13:15

#46

too_money2007: Member; +145|6730|Keller, Tx

Mention the name Israel, Cam comes to spout hate. God, I hate the Irish.

2008-06-17 14:19:47

#47

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6977

too_money2007 wrote:
Mention the name Israel, Cam comes to spout hate. God, I hate the Irish.

Wow, spout hate much? Rationality ftw! You should try actually forming arguments and such things. I'm still puzzled as to which post it was in which I said that I hated Israel. I've been there you know. I got a blessing from a Rabbi at the wailing wall. I even own a kippah and a candelabra.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-06-17 16:10:15)

2008-06-17 16:09:19

#48

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

too_money2007 wrote:
Mention the name Israel, Cam comes to spout hate. God, I hate the Irish.

Wonderful contribution to the thread...take a bow.

You hate the Irish? You say you're from Texas, USA...what mongrel breed are you, pray tell?

2008-06-17 16:24:26

#49

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6827|North Carolina

hmmm... I might write in Mike Gravel now....

2008-06-17 17:16:50

#50

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

turq, please dont vote.

BF2S Forums Obama in suppourt of Israel; Tehran military action still on table

beerface702 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

FEOS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

FEOS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

rammunition wrote:

rammunition wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

rammunition wrote:

Braddock wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

rammunition wrote:

Deadmonkiefart wrote:

rammunition wrote:

Pug wrote:

Braddock wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

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