Pages: 1

 

2008-06-19 13:13:19
Thorax
Banned
+77|6226
I highly recommend this site:

www.perotcharts.com

Website is made in typical Ross Perot fashion, charts and all.  These charts give a clear realization of just how bad our economy has gotten and unless it changes, it isn't getting better.  It's reasons such as this that aggravate me so much when the media devotes an entire week to covering what Rev. Wright said, or What Hillary said about Bosnia, or what a bad speaker McCain is.  Just the thought that people make up their minds about who they are going to vote for based on these principles, instead of the more important problems, such as the economy, make me want to scream.

Also, just before some neo-conservative or extreme left wing nut cases come in here telling us that these charts are all a bunch of BS, politically motivated or propaganda, let me tell you about my experiences with Ross Perot and a little about this site.

I worked for Mr. Perot for 2 years.  The first day on the job Mr. Perot saw me in the lunch line ordering a hamburger and started talking to me.  He bought my lunch for me and then sat and ate with me for a while, asked about my life and how happy I was.  This is the kind of person he is.  He geniunly cares about people, not fame or power.  I can tell you one thing without a shadow of a doubt, this man is a patriot and loves this country more than most anyone I've met.  Perot released these charts not because he wants to sway your vote left or right but because he wants you to vote for the BEST choice.  He wants everyone to do something about this.  This website is not funded by any party, it does not support any candidate and it is not biased in any way.  These are factual charts.

Read them.  Do something about it.
2008-06-19 13:52:53
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6977
Keep the economy like that until after August. Then proceed to strengthen the dollar as you please...
2008-06-19 22:47:25
Kuato
Member
+0|6360|Colorado

Thorax wrote:

Read them.  Do something about it.
I don't doubt that these charts are accurate, but honestly what can we do about it besides complain?  I could protest in front of the oil companies' headquarters and watch them laugh at me as they walk to their Lamborghinis.  Yeah sure I can contact my congressman or senator and nag them constantly, but that doesn't mean they will give a damn.  I suppose if enough people got involved, it would encourage those with the power to do something.  But lets face it, most people are too lazy to do anything about it. 

For example, look at gas prices.  Everyone who drives or owns a car, or even watches the news, knows that gas prices are getting higher and higher.  Everyone gripes and moans about it and some people have cut down their driving.  But people are still buying SUVs.  People are still buying super quad cab mega ginormous hemi powered beasts of trucks.  People are still taking road trips and still commuting in their gas guzzling vehicles.  It sucks and we all know it, but what are we as "the people", doing about it?  Why don't we all rally together and demand to our elected officials that they pass legislation for alternative fuels?  Or pass anything that would help our current situation?  Why?

Because we would rather take it hard, than do anything about it.  And I predict it will be the same when/if gas hits $6/gal or higher.  We will complain.  We will moan.  We will flip off the gas station attendant.  We will do nothing.
2008-06-19 23:22:04
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6951|Global Command
Sometimes things have to be destroyed in order to be saved.

I have a feeling that this is how congress views our economy.
2008-06-19 23:22:57
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6552|North Tonawanda, NY

ATG wrote:

Sometimes things have to be destroyed in order to be saved.

I have a feeling that this is how congress views our economy.
Maybe they ought to reveal their plans for 'saving' it...?
2008-06-20 11:51:44
Thorax
Banned
+77|6226

Kuato wrote:

Thorax wrote:

Read them.  Do something about it.
I don't doubt that these charts are accurate, but honestly what can we do about it besides complain?  I could protest in front of the oil companies' headquarters and watch them laugh at me as they walk to their Lamborghinis.  Yeah sure I can contact my congressman or senator and nag them constantly, but that doesn't mean they will give a damn.  I suppose if enough people got involved, it would encourage those with the power to do something.  But lets face it, most people are too lazy to do anything about it. 

For example, look at gas prices.  Everyone who drives or owns a car, or even watches the news, knows that gas prices are getting higher and higher.  Everyone gripes and moans about it and some people have cut down their driving.  But people are still buying SUVs.  People are still buying super quad cab mega ginormous hemi powered beasts of trucks.  People are still taking road trips and still commuting in their gas guzzling vehicles.  It sucks and we all know it, but what are we as "the people", doing about it?  Why don't we all rally together and demand to our elected officials that they pass legislation for alternative fuels?  Or pass anything that would help our current situation?  Why?

Because we would rather take it hard, than do anything about it.  And I predict it will be the same when/if gas hits $6/gal or higher.  We will complain.  We will moan.  We will flip off the gas station attendant.  We will do nothing.
Note the charts that say "Debt held by public".

It's hard for an economy to prosper when the public and the goverment both are in debt up to their eyeballs.  The sooner people stop living like $30,000 millionaires and the goverment stops spending money needlessly, it won't change.

What can you do?  Well for one, make sure you vote against pork-barrell spenders and against people who support current corporation tactics that encourage large companies and the general public to be in debt.
2008-06-20 12:02:56
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7129|67.222.138.85

SenorToenails wrote:

ATG wrote:

Sometimes things have to be destroyed in order to be saved.

I have a feeling that this is how congress views our economy.
Maybe they ought to reveal their plans for 'saving' it...?
"We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, and hope the other party is in control."
2008-06-20 12:25:25
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6885|meh-land
The economy is so crappy because half the people are tens of thousands of dollars in debt...
a generic side effect of making money off of credit (the housing problems, buy a house on credit, then sell in a few years for moneys), and as well all know...
it tends to set up the economy for a major crash
2008-06-20 13:49:41
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6605|Ireland
2.7 trillion dollars doesn't go as far as it used too.

How fucking sad, I am ashamed of my government.
2008-06-20 21:55:34
Kuato
Member
+0|6360|Colorado

Thorax wrote:

It's hard for an economy to prosper when the public and the goverment both are in debt up to their eyeballs.  The sooner people stop living like $30,000 millionaires and the goverment stops spending money needlessly, it won't change.
I agree, but for people to stop living that way would require willpower and self control, something that our great nation of obese people lack.  Its actually easy to stay out of debt: anyone can make and follow a budget, cut out things they can't afford, and don't need like cable, cellphones and fast food, then pay off their high interest credit cards.  Its as easy as staying within your means, but again, this requires self control which is why not many people are doing it.

Thorax wrote:

What can you do?  Well for one, make sure you vote against pork-barrel spenders and against people who support current corporation tactics that encourage large companies and the general public to be in debt.
Corporations have us by the balls, what can i say?  We are living in a consumer-driven society.  They will always have special interests, and politicians, in general, will always embrace them.  But as far as corporations' tactics that encourage people and businesses to be in debt, I've never heard of that before.  Could you give me an example?  I would assume that corporations want us out of debt, so we have more money to spend on what they are selling.
2008-06-21 03:26:22
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6972|CH/BR - in UK

SenorToenails wrote:

ATG wrote:

Sometimes things have to be destroyed in order to be saved.

I have a feeling that this is how congress views our economy.
Maybe they ought to reveal their plans for 'saving' it...?
I think revealing any plan, no matter how shit it is, could be enough to raise consumer confidence to a level where the economy would fix itself. Right now everyone's put away money to save, and no one's really willing to spend anything.

-kon
2008-06-21 05:59:43
FrankieSpankie3388
Hockey Nut
+243|6952|Boston, MA
I still blame the free trade act that we signed, specifically with China and Japan. The only way free trade can be beneficial to a country is when you come out making more money out of it. However, do you really think China and Japan can sell American made products? They're labor is so cheap and so are the materials. Instead of America trying to convince other countries to buy our goods, we should be trying to convince our country to. Ever notice how it's so hard to buy American now? If you want the dollar to be strong, stop sending them overseas.
2008-06-21 13:01:02
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7038|do not disturb

FrankieSpankie3388 wrote:

I still blame the free trade act that we signed, specifically with China and Japan. The only way free trade can be beneficial to a country is when you come out making more money out of it. However, do you really think China and Japan can sell American made products? They're labor is so cheap and so are the materials. Instead of America trying to convince other countries to buy our goods, we should be trying to convince our country to. Ever notice how it's so hard to buy American now? If you want the dollar to be strong, stop sending them overseas.
If we want the dollar to be strong, we need Fed interest rates at 10% or higher, not this ridiculously low 2%. However the dollar will keep falling but it won't reach worthless if we start raising interest rates.
2008-06-21 13:26:14
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7054|949

An interesting article I came across a few days ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.j … rbs118.xml
2008-06-21 13:56:55
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7038|do not disturb

Saw that as well, however I think we could see something a lot worse in the fall, specifically October. http://www.dollarcollapse.com/ Seeing that Ambac and MBIA have lost their AAA ratings, we can expect to see a lot more bank losses.
2008-06-22 19:09:45
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7038|do not disturb

Yes inflation erodes at debt, but it also erodes at earnings and savings. But consider how much the dollar has to be devalued to pay off $63 trillion in debt and entitlements. Hyperinflation anyone?

Last edited by Phrozenbot (2008-06-22 22:03:35)

2008-06-22 22:37:07
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7038|do not disturb

Well yes our debt outstanding is around that number, however if you include unfunded obligations which includes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, military benefits, state and local debt, and other various federal debt, it totals to over $60 trillion dollars, which was pointed out to congress on a few occasions by former Comptroller of the US David Walker. Video.

Code:

U.S. Government - Alternate Fiscal Deficit and Debt
                    Reported by U.S. Treasury
       Dollars are either billions or trillions, as indicated.
        Sources: U.S. Treasury, Shadow Government Statistics.
                                                               Total
        Formal      GAAP      GAAP       GAAP                 Federal
        Cash-      Ex-SS    With SS     Federal     Gross     Obilga-
Fiscal  Based       Etc.      Etc.     Negative    Federal    tions(2)
Year   Deficit    Deficit   Deficit    Net Worth     Debt      (GAAP)
(1)    ($Bil)     ($Bil)    ($Tril)    ($Tril)     ($Tril)    ($Tril)
-----  ------     ------     ------     ------      ------     ------
2007   $162.8     $275.5      $4.0(3)   $57.1       $9.0       $62.6
2006    248.2      449.5       4.6       53.1        8.5        58.2
2005    318.5      760.2       3.5       48.5        7.9        53.3
2004    412.3      615.6      11.0(4)    45.0        7.4        49.5
2003    374.8      667.6       3.0       34.0        6.8        39.1
2002    157.8      364.5       1.5       31.0        6.2        35.4
(1) Fiscal year ended September 30th. (2) Revised to include gross
federal debt, not just "public" debt. (3) On a consistent reporting
basis, net of one-time changes in actuarial assumptions and
accounting, SGS estimates that the GAAP-based deficit for 2007
topped $4 trillion, instead of the gimmicked $1.2 trillion.
(4) SGS estimates $3.4 trillion, excluding one-time unfunded setup
costs of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and
Modernization Act of 2003 (enacted December 2003). Link to the 2007
statements: http://fms.treas.gov/fr/07frusg/07frusg.pdf
2008-06-23 07:56:52
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7038|do not disturb

Of course, they are still obligations, however as I've pointed out David Walker has presented this out to congress on a number of occasions and congress has done absolutely nothing about this glaring problem. In fact he resigned because of that. There simply is no political will to get rid of social security which will cost us around 5 trillion, or Medicare and Medicaid which is in the tens of trillions.

 

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