stratozyck
Member
+35|7054
Iraq is actually doing very well.  Have you noticed its dropped out of the news?  This year, they are looking at 5-7% growth at least.  Anything above 4% is considered hot.  They could very well post 5% growth for a few years in a row - and that would make them one of the hottest economies in the world.


Also, they will double their own oil output in the next few years.  That alone would pay off the costs of the Iraq war in about 10 years at current prices.  Of course, the money would be theirs, but their increased output will help stem the gas price increases here in America. 

I say this as someone that wouldn't have done the Iraq invasion had I been in power, but I am very pleased with what has happened.  Few people realize what is going on there.  Essentially, al Qaeda and the US went in there at about the same time (of course, US was probably first wink wink).  We presented our vision of the future of the Arab world, and they presented theirs.  They have lost.  Islamic world opinion of al Qaeda a few years ago was widely positive, but now they are strongly viewed as negative (less than 9% view them favorably).


Bush is a gambler - and I think it will take many years before anyone admits that he won this gamble.  What has happened in Iraq has gigantic ramifications. 


You won't read about this in any major news outlet - CNN firmly wants the American people to think negatively about Iraq.  They only report negative stories.  When there isn't anything negative, they report nothing. 

The main story in The Economist was how well Iraq is doing.  If you doubt it yourself, look it up on the CIA Factbook.  Keep in mind that their estimates of 5% annual growth is based on older oil prices.  I firmly believe they have a shot at 7% GDP growth this year. 

Iraq can be like UAE and Qatar - Muslim Arab countries concerned mainly about making a buck than global Jihad. 

Let me say again - I was exteremly dissatisfied with Bush and his presidency.  I can honestly say I never voted for him.  But I have to say - Iraq is doing well.  And also note, CNN says nothing about that at all.  The only stories they report are the occasional violence that still happens. 

Recently, the Iraqi Army was able to swipe away the Sadr Militia without firing a shot.  The militia ran instead of facing them.   I think within a year the US Army's role will be mostly training. 

It maybe cost a lot of money, was frustrating, but Americans, you can hold your heads up high.  We toppled an evil dictator and replaced it with a decent government that is intent on economic growth and wellbeing of its own people.  And again, I can't stress this enough, I was someone that opposed the war. 

Doubt what I am saying?  Check out the latest Economist.  Its on the cover.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7138
I just pray it keeps going in this positive direction and the Iraqi people continue to step up and make their country a peaceful place... I believe... that down deep everyone on earth just want's to live a normal peaceful life... god bless the Iraqi people and coalition troops and continued success
Love is the answer
stratozyck
Member
+35|7054

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

I just pray it keeps going in this positive direction and the Iraqi people continue to step up and make their country a peaceful place... I believe... that down deep everyone on earth just want's to live a normal peaceful life... god bless the Iraqi people and coalition troops and continued success
I agree.  No matter what happened, or how things got the way they are, I want them to have some good decades of solid economic growth.  They deserve it so much, after Saddam and two wars with the US.  What moved me the most was when I saw them lining up to vote the first time.  They did that despite the threat of violence.  A higher percentage of them voted than people voting in US.  I don't tear up often, but that definitely did it for me. 

Oh yeah, and also this article http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,372961,00.html talks about the rebirth of Iraqi Airlines. 

I want to visit the country someday, to see the birthplace of civilization.  I'd like to dine with Iraqis and tell them how much I admire their courage.

And also, the Iraqi Soccer team eliminated China from Olympic competition in 2007.  I don't follow any soccer team, but I will definitely be rooting for these guys to get a medal.

Last edited by stratozyck (2008-06-27 23:28:00)

IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6913|Northern California
Is power, sewage, and other basic infrastructure even 50% of what it was before the invasion?  Is at least 75% of the population back home?

Those are my criteria for "success."  I'm gonna go ahead and guess that none of those are met.  Just a wild guess.
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6644|Brisneyland
Sure the economy is growing, thats because the US knocked it back so much so much when they invaded.

Iraq was invaded on the basis of WMD's (none found) and terrorist links (wasnt any found either). So on the basis of the criteria that the US set to invade, the war was an utter failure. Remember its your tax dollars and the lives of thousands of good soldiers that are being spent to run this. Chances are that the US wont see much benefit, although Halliburton and Cheney might.

As for this

strato wrote:

Iraq can be like UAE and Qatar - Muslim Arab countries concerned mainly about making a buck than global Jihad.
Iraq was a reasonably progressive Islamic country before it was invaded. The minister for foreign affairs was Catholic, and the women didnt have to wear head scarves ( tolerant yes?). Saddam was a bastard for sure, but he wasnt in the habit of letting religion get out of hand. He wanted to make sure he was the top dog.
Vax
Member
+42|6273|Flyover country
Lot of people are going to hate this topic, get ready for much sarcasm and snarky comments   

stratozyck wrote:

Iraq can be like UAE and Qatar - Muslim Arab countries concerned mainly about making a buck than global Jihad.
There is a topic about Dubai around here in the recent posts ...I think it's pretty darn optimistic to hope for anything similar, but it does show what is possible if Iraq "makes it" and starts to reach for it's potential, there will definitely be less opportunity for fanatics and terrorists to have a playground there. No one will care about some shit about infidels if they can see the direct results of being connected and an actual player on the world economic stage. 
Or it could turn into another Lebanon.. we shall see


stratozyck wrote:

Let me say again - I was exteremly dissatisfied with Bush and his presidency.  I can honestly say I never voted for him.  But I have to say - Iraq is doing well.  And also note, CNN says nothing about that at all.  The only stories they report are the occasional violence that still happens.
People will say it has more to do with "if it bleeds, it leads" and good news is boring..and there is some truth to that;  but I watch CNN, and they report on  "feelgood" stuff too -- yet not a single word (that I have seen) about how much things are improving there, how AQ has been decimated and lost popularity/credibility 
Not even a simple hopeful story about how the oil profits/production are up by a huge margin.

Last edited by Vax (2008-06-28 00:46:30)

M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6644|Escea

Watching the news the other day they had a report on Basra which is now apparently 100% secure and its held by the new Iraqi units. A top Al-Qaeda member in Mosul has also been killed.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

I measure progress in the order of troops returning home. Better but a long way to go.

@Burwhale the Avenger, paying off the families of Palestinian suicide bombers and murdering civilians is hardly progressive. I can give you a number of legitimate anti-war talking points without resorting to blatant exaggerations.  If I was looking for progressive in the region I would start with Lebanon.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Vax
Member
+42|6273|Flyover country
IRT MOAB
Good to hear.
Wasn't Fox was it ?



IRT Kmarion

Lebanon has been seemingly plagued with issues of weak central government and rampant militias hasn't it.. 

I get your point though.

Last edited by Vax (2008-06-28 01:02:07)

M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6644|Escea

Vax wrote:

IRT MOAB
Good to hear.
Wasn't Fox was it ?



IRT Kmarion

Lebanon has been seemingly plagued with issues of weak central government and rampant militias hasn't it.. 

I get your point though.
Nope, it was on BBC News 24, which I know is the only news program some people will trust so they can't say it was a lie
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Vax wrote:

IRT Kmarion

Lebanon has been seemingly plagued with issues of weak central government and rampant militias hasn't it..
It's a symptom of the region. Forward thinking and tolerant democratic governments are a threat to their neighbors. Everyone knows who funds Hezzbolah.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7189
Finally some good news. Glad to hear it.

Lets home there are no more deaths.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6707
41 Dead in Iraq Bombings

In Iraq, at least forty-one people were killed in separate bombings Thursday. Twenty Iraqis were killed along with three U.S. marines at a tribal council meeting in Anbar province. Another eighteen people were killed and eighty wounded in a car bomb attack in the northern city of Mosul. Thirteen Americans including two civilians have died in Iraq since Monday. Twenty-nine U.S. servicemembers have been killed in June, making it one of the bloodiest periods for the U.S. military in several months. At least fifty Iraqis have died in the same stretch.

June Deadliest Month of Afghan Invasion for Foreign Troops

Meanwhile in Afghanistan, June has become the deadliest month for foreign troops there since the 2001 invasion. On Thursday, a roadside bomb killed three service-members in a foreign convoy, bringing this month’s troop toll to thirty-nine.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/27/headlines#4
Not all good news. Growth in the Iraqi economy should be measured against pre-invasion levels, not last year, if you want to know how well they're doing as a result of the invasion.
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6644|Brisneyland
Guys, Kmarion pointed out to me that I was understating the regime that Saddam represented in my post ( ie Iraq as progressive). He is right, Saddam was an evil man and the Iraqi people suffered greatly under his rule. Although the points I mentioned are true, it possibly understates the fact that he destroyed many lives to cling onto power.

I still disagree with Allied forces invading Iraq, however I am honestly happy that they are getting it together and making progress.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6765|tropical regions of london
The lebanese government is doomed
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6605|Ireland
400 billion dollars later......

Only $1300 dollars per US citizen, what a bargin, financed infinitely by the US government that comes to about $200 a year for ever per US citizen.  Of course Babies, Children, and retired folks don't pay taxes along with unemployed and poor so it will cost me about $4000 dollars or $600 a year infinitely, but hey as long as the Iraqis are happy because that is what is important in all of this.

Now Excuse me while I go to work my normal 48hrs a week which includes saturdays.
usmarine2
Banned
+233|6213|Dublin, Ohio
lies
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6833|'Murka

PureFodder wrote:

41 Dead in Iraq Bombings

In Iraq, at least forty-one people were killed in separate bombings Thursday. Twenty Iraqis were killed along with three U.S. marines at a tribal council meeting in Anbar province. Another eighteen people were killed and eighty wounded in a car bomb attack in the northern city of Mosul. Thirteen Americans including two civilians have died in Iraq since Monday. Twenty-nine U.S. servicemembers have been killed in June, making it one of the bloodiest periods for the U.S. military in several months. At least fifty Iraqis have died in the same stretch.

June Deadliest Month of Afghan Invasion for Foreign Troops

Meanwhile in Afghanistan, June has become the deadliest month for foreign troops there since the 2001 invasion. On Thursday, a roadside bomb killed three service-members in a foreign convoy, bringing this month’s troop toll to thirty-nine.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/27/headlines#4
Not all good news. Growth in the Iraqi economy should be measured against pre-invasion levels, not last year, if you want to know how well they're doing as a result of the invasion.
I don't believe he was making the comparison to before the invasion, but rather to how things have been since the invasion.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Hasn't the GDP more than doubled since prewar? Lifting the sanctions kinda helped .

Kinda thought this was old news by now.

Don't you guys see the pattern? When the Iraq economy improves you beat the violence drum. When the violence improves you beat the economic drum. When both are improving .. well.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
mikkel
Member
+383|7023
Does this honestly surprise anyone? The country was bombed deep, deep into hell, and what followed was five years of occupation and violent uprising. I'd say that if the country -didn't- experience "explosive growth" after five years of aggressive rebuilding, something would've been terribly, terribly wrong.

This sort of growth is to be expected considering the scenario. If we instead consider the monumental mistakes associated with how the US armed forces approached Iraq, and the suffering and cost on both sides because of this, I wouldn't hesitate to call the whole thing a failure. It's no secret that Saddam could be overthrown, and Iraq restored - it's how you go about it that serves as the metric for success.

Last edited by mikkel (2008-06-28 10:09:39)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6833|'Murka

mikkel wrote:

Does this honestly surprise anyone? The country was bombed deep, deep into hell, and what followed was five years of occupation and violent uprising. I'd say that if the country -didn't- experience "explosive growth" after five years of aggressive rebuilding, something would've been terribly, terribly wrong.

This sort of growth is to be expected considering the scenario. If we instead consider the monumental mistakes associated with how the US armed forces Administration approached Iraq, and the suffering and cost on both sides because of this, I wouldn't hesitate to call the whole thing a failure. It's no secret that Saddam could be overthrown, and Iraq restored - it's how you go about it that serves as the metric for success.
Fixed.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7093|UK
How nice.

5 years too late.  But better late than never i guess.  So yes, we were all mistaken you are indeed the saviours of the civilised world and we bow our heads in shame.

lawl.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6707

Kmarion wrote:

Hasn't the GDP more than doubled since prewar? Lifting the sanctions kinda helped .

Kinda thought this was old news by now.

Don't you guys see the pattern? When the Iraq economy improves you beat the violence drum. When the violence improves you beat the economic drum. When both are improving .. well.
So the 'repairing thing that we blew up' industries are booming, Who'd have guessed.

When reports of the booming construction industry in Chechenya were announced at least people had the sense to put 2 and 2 together.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

PureFodder wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Hasn't the GDP more than doubled since prewar? Lifting the sanctions kinda helped .

Kinda thought this was old news by now.

Don't you guys see the pattern? When the Iraq economy improves you beat the violence drum. When the violence improves you beat the economic drum. When both are improving .. well.
So the 'repairing thing that we blew up' industries are booming, Who'd have guessed.

When reports of the booming construction industry in Chechenya were announced at least people had the sense to put 2 and 2 together.
Really? Cell phone companies are repairing bridges now? If you would have read the article you would have seen that not only construction but retail sales, car sales, and others. That was two years ago when the violence was to escalated. I would imagine with increased security other trade sectors would continue to evolve as well. Why don't you try using a source to back up the industry specific growth rather than making "common sense" remarks?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
PureFodder
Member
+225|6707

Kmarion wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Hasn't the GDP more than doubled since prewar? Lifting the sanctions kinda helped .

Kinda thought this was old news by now.

Don't you guys see the pattern? When the Iraq economy improves you beat the violence drum. When the violence improves you beat the economic drum. When both are improving .. well.
So the 'repairing thing that we blew up' industries are booming, Who'd have guessed.

When reports of the booming construction industry in Chechenya were announced at least people had the sense to put 2 and 2 together.
Really? Cell phone companies are repairing bridges now? If you would have read the article you would have seen that not only construction but retail sales, car sales, and others. That was two years ago when the violence was to escalated. I would imagine with increased security other trade sectors would continue to evolve as well. Why don't you try using a source to back up the industry specific growth rather than making "common sense" remarks?
Industries tend not to make detailed reports on how many buildings need repairing or rebuilding as a direct result of the post-invasion violence. How many cars were damaged or destroyed. How much the phone industry is being temporairaly bolstered by foreign contracters and security that are only there as a direct result of the invasion and have little to do with the well being of the Iraqi economy.

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