China Inspired Interrogations at Guantánamo

2008-07-02 02:05:48

#1

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

"The military trainers who came to Guantánamo Bay in December 2002 based an entire interrogation class on a chart showing the effects of “coercive management techniques” for possible use on prisoners, including “sleep deprivation,” “prolonged constraint,” and “exposure”. What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners. The recycled chart is the latest and most vivid evidence of the way Communist interrogation methods that the United States long described as torture became the basis for interrogations both by the military at the base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and by the Central Intelligence Agency.

Several Guantánamo documents, including the chart outlining coercive methods, were made public at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing June 17 that examined how such tactics came to be employed."

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02 … mp;emc=rss
PDF of Released Documents: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nat … 2_SASC.pdf

2008-07-02 02:32:22

#2

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6832|'Murka

NYT article wrote:
Some methods were used against a small number of prisoners at Guantánamo before 2005, when Congress banned the use of coercion by the military.

Some, small number, before 2005. So not every technique described in the Chinese document was used, those that were used were used against a small number of prisoners, and any questionable methods haven't been used since 2005.

The Jan-Apr 03 memoranda from Rumsfeld are quite interesting, as well. Kind of shoots that whole "zomg teh torturz!" stuff right in the foot (no pun intended).

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-07-02 02:34:11

#3

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6527|eXtreme to the maX

The US using Chinese/North Korean interrogation techniques.
Is this how freedom and liberty work?

Fuck Israel

2008-07-02 02:49:36

#4

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6832|'Murka

Using some of the same techniques used by the Chinese is not the same as using "Chinese" interrogation techniques. These techniques are not unique to any single country. The study referenced was simply one that looked at the effectiveness of varying techniques used by the Chinese against USAF prisoners in the Korean War. Read the .pdf file Braddock so kindly provided.

Last edited by FEOS (2008-07-02 03:08:46)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-07-02 02:54:47

#5

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6527|eXtreme to the maX

any questionable methods haven't been used since 2005

Questionable methods shouldn't have been used at all.
Why does this need to be explained?

Fuck Israel

2008-07-02 03:07:59

#6

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6832|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
any questionable methods haven't been used since 2005
Questionable methods shouldn't have been used at all.
Why does this need to be explained?

Depends on who is questioning them. For example, anything other than puppies, sunshine, and soft pillows constitutes torture to you. Therefore, your level of "questionable" would be much different than someone else's.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-07-02 03:15:53

#7

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6527|eXtreme to the maX

It was clearly 'questionable' as the US admin had to seek 'advice' from its weasel lawyers.
It was clearly 'questionable' as Congress (and I think the Supreme Court) have since determined.
If the US really have done 100 times more for freedom and democracy than the rest of the world combined why is this even under consideration?

Fuck Israel

2008-07-02 04:23:50

#8

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

FEOS wrote:
NYT article wrote:
Some methods were used against a small number of prisoners at Guantánamo before 2005, when Congress banned the use of coercion by the military.
Some, small number, before 2005. So not every technique described in the Chinese document was used, those that were used were used against a small number of prisoners, and any questionable methods haven't been used since 2005.

The Jan-Apr 03 memoranda from Rumsfeld are quite interesting, as well. Kind of shoots that whole "zomg teh torturz!" stuff right in the foot (no pun intended).

This article doesn't surprise me and I don't even consider it that earth shattering in the grand scheme of things but it does, to a certain extent, back up the argument that I have made in previous threads that the US are going down the same road as regimes such as China, Saddam's Iraq and Korea in their attitude towards what is acceptable when it comes to the abuse of human rights.

2008-07-02 06:40:35

#9

BN: smells like wee wee; +159|7189

The foundations of most modern torture came from the MKUltra program.

Donald Ewen Cameron was a psychiatrist and recruited by the CIA and worked out of McGill University in Montreal.

He did hideous things with electro shock 30 to 40 times the normal power, sleep deprivation and induced sleep, playing tape loops of noise or simple repetitive statements, sensory deprivation, and many other abhorrent things.

2008-07-02 06:50:20

#10

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

Dilbert_X wrote:
Is this how freedom and liberty work?

yes. any more stupid questions?

2008-07-02 09:57:17

#11

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +796|7106|United States of America

To be fair, the base is in Cuba with the other communists. It just wouldn't be proper to use capitalist interrogations.

2008-07-02 14:06:06

#12

rammunition: Fully Loaded; +143|6283

was going to do a post on this, but as i have said, its never America's fault is it?????

2008-07-02 14:07:12

#13

FatherTed: xD; +3,936|6921|so randum

inb4rammuntion
-edit what the fuck. mind hacker.

Last edited by FatherTed (2008-07-02 14:07:38)

Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella

2008-07-02 14:17:34

#14

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

rammunition wrote:
was going to do a post on this, but as i have said, its never America's fault is it?????

its always America's fault. stupid.

2008-07-02 14:19:54

#15

rammunition: Fully Loaded; +143|6283

God Save the Queen wrote:
rammunition wrote:
was going to do a post on this, but as i have said, its never America's fault is it?????
its always America's fault. stupid.

its never America's fault. stupid

2008-07-02 14:21:45

#16

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

its always America's fault. smart guy.

2008-07-02 14:24:33

#17

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6832|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
It was clearly 'questionable' as the US admin had to seek 'advice' from its weasel lawyers.
It was clearly 'questionable' as Congress (and I think the Supreme Court) have since determined.
If the US really have done 100 times more for freedom and democracy than the rest of the world combined why is this even under consideration?

The difference you are failing (likely purposefully) to see is the introspection, self-investigation, and adjustment that resulted in those decisions.

Pretty sure neither China or North Korea did the same.

You are also missing the definition of "questionable". If people didn't question it (see introspection, self-investigation, and adjustment above), then you would have a case. They did, so you don't. QED and thanks for playing.

Braddock wrote:
This article doesn't surprise me and I don't even consider it that earth shattering in the grand scheme of things but it does, to a certain extent, back up the argument that I have made in previous threads that the US are going down the same road as regimes such as China, Saddam's Iraq and Korea in their attitude towards what is acceptable when it comes to the abuse of human rights.

If the US felt it was acceptable and "is going down the same road" that you describe, the changes wouldn't have been made, would they?

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-07-03 02:31:27

#18

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,822|6527|eXtreme to the maX

Who cares what introspection happened after the event.
The US govt took a positive decision to use the same torture techniques used by the Chinese and North Koreans, and later decided those techniques were unacceptable.
In summary the US used methods of torture it determined to be unacceptable just a few months later.

We're not in the middle ages, this is the 21st century. The US govt knew exactly what is was doing getting legal opinions that anything short of killing someone didn't amount to torture.

Any normal rational human being knows its wrong.

Fuck Israel

2008-07-03 04:54:03

#19

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

FEOS wrote:
Braddock wrote:
This article doesn't surprise me and I don't even consider it that earth shattering in the grand scheme of things but it does, to a certain extent, back up the argument that I have made in previous threads that the US are going down the same road as regimes such as China, Saddam's Iraq and Korea in their attitude towards what is acceptable when it comes to the abuse of human rights.
If the US felt it was acceptable and "is going down the same road" that you describe, the changes wouldn't have been made, would they?

These kind of progressions in society are usually composed of several different Governmental elements fighting their corner and pushing their respective angles...it's never a clear cut case of a Government just deciding "let's get evil and ruthless". What this article shows is that for a time the more extreme opinions held sway and highly questionable techniques became common practice, thankfully the more moderate elements seem to have forced their angle a little more and undone some of the damage. It's just worrying that the US would seem so content, for any length of time, to go down a route they had previously described as that of the enemy.

2008-07-03 05:36:32

#20

JahManRed: wank; +646|7049|IRELAND

Great to see the worlds largest democracy getting tips from the world largest dictatorship on how to torture their citizens.

The global village is alive and well.

2008-07-03 07:59:18

#21

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6832|'Murka

Interrogation techniques don't have a nationality or an ideology. They are based on human response. Period.

The study looked at the techniques that were effective to ensure that any techniques (which if you actually read the techniques authorized are far from "torture") used were effective in getting valid info, not false confessions. You have to look at what didn't work as well as what did work to come up with an effective program.

But don't bother reading the actual documents signed by the people in question (.pdf file provided). It's far easier to just make hyperbolic claims than to be objective.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-07-03 08:50:20

#22

PureFodder: Member; +225|6707

FEOS wrote:
Interrogation techniques don't have a nationality or an ideology. They are based on human response. Period.

The study looked at the techniques that were effective to ensure that any techniques (which if you actually read the techniques authorized are far from "torture") used were effective in getting valid info, not false confessions. You have to look at what didn't work as well as what did work to come up with an effective program.

But don't bother reading the actual documents signed by the people in question (.pdf file provided). It's far easier to just make hyperbolic claims than to be objective.

The objections appear to be more aimed at the torture itself, rather than how sucessful the methods are.

2008-07-03 08:56:39

#23

God Save the Queen: Banned; +628|6765|tropical regions of london

JahManRed wrote:
Great to see the worlds largest democracy getting tips from the world largest dictatorship on how to torture their citizens.

The global village is alive and well.

china is a dictatorship?

2008-07-03 09:11:20

#24

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6832|'Murka

PureFodder wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Interrogation techniques don't have a nationality or an ideology. They are based on human response. Period.

The study looked at the techniques that were effective to ensure that any techniques (which if you actually read the techniques authorized are far from "torture") used were effective in getting valid info, not false confessions. You have to look at what didn't work as well as what did work to come up with an effective program.

But don't bother reading the actual documents signed by the people in question (.pdf file provided). It's far easier to just make hyperbolic claims than to be objective.
The objections appear to be more aimed at the torture itself, rather than how sucessful the methods are.

The objections appear to be more aimed at the source of the study (interrogation methods used by the Chinese during the Korean War), then saying the US is using "Chinese torture methods". Which is utter crap.

If you read the .pdf and see what techniques are authorized by the US, you'd be hard-pressed to find torture in there.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2008-07-03 09:59:56

#25

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6712|Éire

FEOS wrote:
Interrogation techniques don't have a nationality or an ideology. They are based on human response. Period.

The study looked at the techniques that were effective to ensure that any techniques (which if you actually read the techniques authorized are far from "torture") used were effective in getting valid info, not false confessions. You have to look at what didn't work as well as what did work to come up with an effective program.

But don't bother reading the actual documents signed by the people in question (.pdf file provided). It's far easier to just make hyperbolic claims than to be objective.

So it's not so much that the powers that be decided to take the moral high ground but rather only ditched the torture methods that didn't return reliable info?

BF2S Forums China Inspired Interrogations at Guantánamo

NYT article wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

NYT article wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

rammunition wrote:

God Save the Queen wrote:

rammunition wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

FEOS wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Board footer