ReTox
Member
+100|6920|State of RETOXification
No doubt it's torture, says U.S. journalist after trying waterboarding

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/07/0 … ml?ref=rss

I find this very interesting and applaud his brass ones.  No way I would try this but without a doubt this guy now knows what waterboarding does.  He had safe words and gestures that would stop it immediately but still had a profound experience.  So much so he's having nightmares and panic attacks.

I know we have talked about waterboarding before but my question to you fine folks is "Would you be willing to try it?"
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6989|Mountains of NC

I'm tired of all this waterboarding shit .......... I did it in SERE, ppl before me did it and ppl after me will do it
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7092|UK
F U C K

N O
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

ReTox wrote:

No doubt it's torture, says U.S. journalist after trying waterboarding

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/07/0 … ml?ref=rss

I find this very interesting and applaud his brass ones.  No way I would try this but without a doubt this guy now knows what waterboarding does.  He had safe words and gestures that would stop it immediately but still had a profound experience.  So much so he's having nightmares and panic attacks.

I know we have talked about waterboarding before but my question to you fine folks is "Would you be willing to try it?"
I think the US tried to ask politely, over dinner, for the answers they needed to save coalition and innocent lives, but apparently that didn't work.

Actually I think this was stupid for him to try and even more stupid as to how surprised he was with the results........I don't need to fall off a 20 story building to imagine how shitty that might be. I don't need to be set on fire to know how painful that would be, and  I do not need to be drown to know that I won't be able to breathe water...........
ReTox
Member
+100|6920|State of RETOXification

SEREMAKER wrote:

I'm tired of all this waterboarding shit .......... I did it in SERE, ppl before me did it and ppl after me will do it
You did it or had it done to you?

I was tired of hearing about waterboarding until I read this.  Maybe it is because it is a supporter of Bush and his policies having such a turn about in thinking that I find... well very honest.  Besides, as long as there is a large group of people opposed to their government's actions then it should be debated at the very least.

It's a fine line though isn't it?  We want to safe guard our people and interests but at the same time we laud our supremacy in human rights while doing things that if most people went through would likely be thought of as torture.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,072|7193|PNW

I tried eating a Krispy Kreme donut once. No doubt it was torture. Maybe we should interrogate with greasy food!

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-07-09 09:22:22)

Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7042|London, England
I dunno. Some of these terrorists/combatants that they do it to are hard bastards who have grown up their whole lives in a warzone (except for the Pakistani fanboys you get from Bradford taking a BA flight to Peshawar and then trekking it across the border for some Jihad)

I'm sure it's not nearly as bad for them as it would be for some Journo
CaptainSpaulding71
Member
+119|6778|CA, USA
those who do not condone waterboarding, please suggest effective alternative methods to extract information from people unwilling to give it to you

let's suppose you catch a bunch of terrorists carrying weapons and had videos they took of blowing up humvees, etc.  we're supposed to just sit around in a circle and share stories?  how do we get effective intelligence as to their leadership structure and funding sources?  seems to me the most effective way is to get the info from these people since they know it intimately already.
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6604|Ireland
This is so fucking stupid there isn't a bus built short enough for it to ride.

#1  if it was torture people wouldn't volunteer to try it.
#2  if it was torture he wouldn't have walked away from it without a mark in fine condition.

Fucking stupid liberals.  Who wants to volunteer to have their fingers nail pulled out with pliers one at a time or their arms bent backward over a door until they dislocate, tear all the ligaments, and then break.

I would gladly have been forced to endure this " torture " than basic training.  So fuck all of you and go hug a bunny rabbit you pussy fart liberals.
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6604|Ireland

ReTox wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:

I'm tired of all this waterboarding shit .......... I did it in SERE, ppl before me did it and ppl after me will do it
You did it or had it done to you?

I was tired of hearing about waterboarding until I read this.  Maybe it is because it is a supporter of Bush and his policies having such a turn about in thinking that I find... well very honest.  Besides, as long as there is a large group of people opposed to their government's actions then it should be debated at the very least.

It's a fine line though isn't it?  We want to safe guard our people and interests but at the same time we laud our supremacy in human rights while doing things that if most people went through would likely be thought of as torture.
Well wtf, nobody said it would be a pleasureful experience.  No shit it is scary, scary and unpleasent enough to make you talk, but so is fucking Rosanne Bar but that one guy did it for years to get a t.v. show.

fact is it doesn't hurt people physically, just like a haunted house to a 7 year old it scares the shit out of you and then you are fine. 

Good God it is not a difficult concept.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Staunch Bush Policy Supporter?
Hitchens has said he no longer feels a part of the Left. He does not object to being called a "former" Trotskyist, his affection for Trotsky remains strong, and he says that his political and historical view of the world is still shaped by Marxist categories. However, in 2004, Hitchens regarded himself as a "single-issue voter," speaking primarily about a "battle" between secular democracy and theocratic fascism.

Hitchens is seen as part of the "pro-liberation left" or "liberal hawks" comprising left-leaning commentators who supported the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.This informal grouping includes the British writers Nick Cohen, Johann Hari, David Aaronovitch, Norman Geras, Julie Burchill, and the Canadian Michael Ignatieff (see Euston Manifesto).[citation needed] Neoconservatives of the last decade are hesitant to embrace Hitchens as one of their own, in part because of his harsh criticisms of Ronald Reagan. He similarly refuses to define himself as a member of the neoconservative movement.

Despite his many articles supporting the US invasion of Iraq, Hitchens made a brief return to The Nation just before the 2004 US presidential election and wrote that he was "slightly" for George W. Bush; shortly afterwards, Slate polled its staff on their positions on the candidates and mistakenly printed Hitchens' vote as pro-Kerry. Hitchens shifted his opinion to neutral, saying: "It's absurd for liberals to talk as if Kristallnacht is impending with Bush, and it's unwise and indecent for Republicans to equate Kerry with capitulation. There's no one to whom he can surrender, is there? I think that the nature of the jihadist enemy will decide things in the end".

In the interview with journalist Johann Hari in 2004, in which Hitchens described himself as "on the same side as the neo-conservatives," he also states that he does not support George Bush per se (still less Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld) but rather allies himself with "pure" neo-conservatives, especially Paul Wolfowitz. Although Hitchens defends Bush’s foreign policy, he has criticized Bush's support of intelligent design.
I wouldn't go so far as to say staunch.. confused maybe..lol.

In fact:
In January 2006, Hitchens joined with four other individuals and four organizations, including the ACLU and Greenpeace, as plaintiffs in a lawsuit, ACLU v. NSA; challenging Bush's warrantless domestic spying program; the lawsuit was filed by the ACLU
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/17/polit … ref=slogin
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/nsaspying/ … 60116.html
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6711|Éire

lowing wrote:

ReTox wrote:

No doubt it's torture, says U.S. journalist after trying waterboarding

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/07/0 … ml?ref=rss

I find this very interesting and applaud his brass ones.  No way I would try this but without a doubt this guy now knows what waterboarding does.  He had safe words and gestures that would stop it immediately but still had a profound experience.  So much so he's having nightmares and panic attacks.

I know we have talked about waterboarding before but my question to you fine folks is "Would you be willing to try it?"
I think the US tried to ask politely, over dinner, for the answers they needed to save coalition and innocent lives, but apparently that didn't work.

Actually I think this was stupid for him to try and even more stupid as to how surprised he was with the results........I don't need to fall off a 20 story building to imagine how shitty that might be. I don't need to be set on fire to know how painful that would be, and  I do not need to be drown to know that I won't be able to breathe water...........
So what would you say to someone who has had waterboarding done to them but has turned out be innocent?

"Sorry about that, won't happen again"?
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6914|Connecticut
I prefer waterskiing myself, but is boarding really that bad??
Malloy must go
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6940|Πάϊ
O well, since he changed his mind about it, I guess it was worth it...
ƒ³
PureFodder
Member
+225|6706
Do all of the 'waterboarding is just fine' crowd advocate using it as a standard police questioning tool. Grab people you suspect of a minor crime, waterboard the crap out of them and then start asking the questions. Would you mind if the cops did this to your wife/kids? If it's not torture, why not inflict upon the general populace?
CaptainSpaulding71
Member
+119|6778|CA, USA

PureFodder wrote:

Do all of the 'waterboarding is just fine' crowd advocate using it as a standard police questioning tool. Grab people you suspect of a minor crime, waterboard the crap out of them and then start asking the questions. Would you mind if the cops did this to your wife/kids? If it's not torture, why not inflict upon the general populace?
again, what methods would you suggest to extract information about command and control elements of a terrorist infrastructure that is bent upon doing you harm?  if dude was captured with bomb making tools, jihadi tapes, etc, he's likely not a choir boy.  he's not going to talk willingly.  then how do you suggest we get this info out of him?  or do we just hold him?  perhaps he should just be killed outright?  maybe caught and then released? 

i'm not trying to sound 'smart-alek' - just frustrated that we don't get counter proposals on how best to get the information that can save people's lives.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

ReTox wrote:

No doubt it's torture, says U.S. journalist after trying waterboarding

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/07/0 … ml?ref=rss

I find this very interesting and applaud his brass ones.  No way I would try this but without a doubt this guy now knows what waterboarding does.  He had safe words and gestures that would stop it immediately but still had a profound experience.  So much so he's having nightmares and panic attacks.

I know we have talked about waterboarding before but my question to you fine folks is "Would you be willing to try it?"
I think the US tried to ask politely, over dinner, for the answers they needed to save coalition and innocent lives, but apparently that didn't work.

Actually I think this was stupid for him to try and even more stupid as to how surprised he was with the results........I don't need to fall off a 20 story building to imagine how shitty that might be. I don't need to be set on fire to know how painful that would be, and  I do not need to be drown to know that I won't be able to breathe water...........
So what would you say to someone who has had waterboarding done to them but has turned out be innocent?

"Sorry about that, won't happen again"?
Nope, we should saw off their fuckin heads on national TV, or hang their mutalated bodies over a fuckin' bridge. That seems to be the going craze. and one that seems to be approved of, since no mentioned it.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6711|Éire

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:


I think the US tried to ask politely, over dinner, for the answers they needed to save coalition and innocent lives, but apparently that didn't work.

Actually I think this was stupid for him to try and even more stupid as to how surprised he was with the results........I don't need to fall off a 20 story building to imagine how shitty that might be. I don't need to be set on fire to know how painful that would be, and  I do not need to be drown to know that I won't be able to breathe water...........
So what would you say to someone who has had waterboarding done to them but has turned out be innocent?

"Sorry about that, won't happen again"?
Nope, we should saw off their fuckin heads on national TV, or hang their mutalated bodies over a fuckin' bridge. That seems to be the going craze. and one that seems to be approved of, since no mentioned it.
You want to saw innocent people's heads of on national TV or hang their mutilated bodies over a bridge!?
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7189

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:


I think the US tried to ask politely, over dinner, for the answers they needed to save coalition and innocent lives, but apparently that didn't work.

Actually I think this was stupid for him to try and even more stupid as to how surprised he was with the results........I don't need to fall off a 20 story building to imagine how shitty that might be. I don't need to be set on fire to know how painful that would be, and  I do not need to be drown to know that I won't be able to breathe water...........
So what would you say to someone who has had waterboarding done to them but has turned out be innocent?

"Sorry about that, won't happen again"?
Nope, we should saw off their fuckin heads on national TV, or hang their mutalated bodies over a fuckin' bridge. That seems to be the going craze. and one that seems to be approved of, since no mentioned it.
If you tortured me i would admit to the lindbergh kidnapping. Its unreliable.
Good police work and good intelligence worked in Northern Ireland.
But this is only good if ur treating the symptoms and not the cause.
Vax
Member
+42|6273|Flyover country

Kmarion wrote:

Staunch Bush Policy Supporter?
Hitchens has said he no longer feels a part of the Left. He does not object to being called a "former" Trotskyist, his affection for Trotsky remains strong, and he says that his political and historical view of the world is still shaped by Marxist categories. However, in 2004, Hitchens regarded himself as a "single-issue voter," speaking primarily about a "battle" between secular democracy and theocratic fascism.

Hitchens is seen as part of the "pro-liberation left" or "liberal hawks" comprising left-leaning commentators who supported the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.This informal grouping includes the British writers Nick Cohen, Johann Hari, David Aaronovitch, Norman Geras, Julie Burchill, and the Canadian Michael Ignatieff (see Euston Manifesto).[citation needed] Neoconservatives of the last decade are hesitant to embrace Hitchens as one of their own, in part because of his harsh criticisms of Ronald Reagan. He similarly refuses to define himself as a member of the neoconservative movement.

Despite his many articles supporting the US invasion of Iraq, Hitchens made a brief return to The Nation just before the 2004 US presidential election and wrote that he was "slightly" for George W. Bush; shortly afterwards, Slate polled its staff on their positions on the candidates and mistakenly printed Hitchens' vote as pro-Kerry. Hitchens shifted his opinion to neutral, saying: "It's absurd for liberals to talk as if Kristallnacht is impending with Bush, and it's unwise and indecent for Republicans to equate Kerry with capitulation. There's no one to whom he can surrender, is there? I think that the nature of the jihadist enemy will decide things in the end".

In the interview with journalist Johann Hari in 2004, in which Hitchens described himself as "on the same side as the neo-conservatives," he also states that he does not support George Bush per se (still less Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld) but rather allies himself with "pure" neo-conservatives, especially Paul Wolfowitz. Although Hitchens defends Bush’s foreign policy, he has criticized Bush's support of intelligent design.
I wouldn't go so far as to say staunch.. confused maybe..lol.
Yeah, Hitchens has been much more anti-Saddam than pro-Bush, and far from a "staunch supporter" 
9/11 seems to have had a profound effect on his views..

@ the topic, how many people does the US actually use waterboarding on ? I think it amounts to no more than a handful; but I suppose I don't really know.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6866|The Land of Scott Walker

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Do all of the 'waterboarding is just fine' crowd advocate using it as a standard police questioning tool. Grab people you suspect of a minor crime, waterboard the crap out of them and then start asking the questions. Would you mind if the cops did this to your wife/kids? If it's not torture, why not inflict upon the general populace?
again, what methods would you suggest to extract information about command and control elements of a terrorist infrastructure that is bent upon doing you harm?  if dude was captured with bomb making tools, jihadi tapes, etc, he's likely not a choir boy.  he's not going to talk willingly.  then how do you suggest we get this info out of him?  or do we just hold him?  perhaps he should just be killed outright?  maybe caught and then released? 

i'm not trying to sound 'smart-alek' - just frustrated that we don't get counter proposals on how best to get the information that can save people's lives.
Hmmm no suggestions yet.  I'll check back later.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6940|Πάϊ

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

if dude was captured with bomb making tools, jihadi tapes, etc, he's likely not a choir boy.  he's not going to talk willingly.  then how do you suggest we get this info out of him?  or do we just hold him?  perhaps he should just be killed outright?  maybe caught and then released?
What you're describing sounds as if it came right out of a 24 episode or something. Things are never that clear-cut. What if it was just tape and some other harmless stuff that "could" be used in bomb making (like wires etc) among a million other things? And what if that dude had a beard and dark skin?

Arab tv repair guy is looking suspicious in some posh neighborhood as he's going through some tools in his car. Brainwashed old lady calls the cops. Would you waterboard him? There's a million scenarios I could think of like that.

If I were a terrorist, that's what I'd want. Innocents tortured by cops. What better way to scare people? Mind you, they've already done it...
ƒ³
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6832|'Murka

PureFodder wrote:

Do all of the 'waterboarding is just fine' crowd advocate using it as a standard police questioning tool. Grab people you suspect of a minor crime, waterboard the crap out of them and then start asking the questions. Would you mind if the cops did this to your wife/kids? If it's not torture, why not inflict upon the general populace?
I'm fairly sure nobody has implied or stated explicitly that random, everyday use of the technique would be acceptable. You don't start with it...you work your way up to it when lesser techniques don't work.

The lesser techniques that aren't even debated as torture aren't "inflicted" upon the general populace, either.

A drill instructor yelling in your face and PT'ing you into goo isn't torture...but it's not "inflicted" upon the general populace either, is it?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:


So what would you say to someone who has had waterboarding done to them but has turned out be innocent?

"Sorry about that, won't happen again"?
Nope, we should saw off their fuckin heads on national TV, or hang their mutalated bodies over a fuckin' bridge. That seems to be the going craze. and one that seems to be approved of, since no mentioned it.
You want to saw innocent people's heads of on national TV or hang their mutilated bodies over a bridge!?
Yeah sure, why not, this practice seems to be accepted with little to know outrage attached to it........Nothing like the outrage of having a burlap sack placed over your head or being forced to pose in your underwear for a photo op.
ZombieVampire!
The Gecko
+69|6248

CaptainSpaulding71 wrote:

those who do not condone waterboarding, please suggest effective alternative methods to extract information from people unwilling to give it to you
Except that there's little evidence that torture is effective.

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