lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

I see, so basically you are saying ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations, they arre ALL victims of society. They have nothing to do with, or can influence their successes or failures....EVERYTHING is pure luck and unlucky circumstances.

Boy, quite a generalization ya got going there. I thought those were not allowed in this forum.
Where did any of us say ALL ?

Are you really this daft lowing ?

Can't you comprehend the fact that all people are different in some way, that be either religion, political believes, moral, social status, general abilities, mental capability, upbringing, economy, luck, guts ... there are so freakin many factors that comes into play here and that most certainly influence their success or failure ... of course there are lazy people and welfare speculators also into this equation.
Yeah I get that, and which one of those descriptions exonerates one from their faiure in exercising personal responsibility and contribute to society instead of burdening it?

Keeping in mind that numerous times I have stated support for those that can not help themselves, IE handicapped or children etc....

Last edited by lowing (2008-07-10 10:20:03)

djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6757|Oregon
What is so disgusting about your argument lowing is that you assume everyone has the means by which to get a job and be a functioning member of society, but there are so many factors that can derail one's most valiant efforts to be successful, that homelessness should be looked at as a societal condition rather than a personal one, and when it is a societal condition, the government should be responsible for at least working to solve the problem.

You saying "if they can stand outside a store, they can sit in a classroom" is such a fucking arrogant statement that I don't even know if I should qualify with a response, but I'll do it anyway. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?! Do you know how much it costs to go to college now, and for some people, how hard it is to be in school at any level? What if the person's parents were impoverished and didn't have a stable home, how would the kid be able to reliably do his homework, get to class, and focus? What if he were hungry?
What if his parents are abusive drug addicts, or what if he had a little brother with a disability, and because of their already low economic state, their parents were forced to spend all their money on health care for a dying child, and couldn't help this kid?

This is the kind of thing I hear about frequently from my mom, and has really made me look differently at poverty. I hope someday you can see it as I do.

Also, maybe you don't remember but my brother was hospitalized for a potassium deficiency caused by a rare kidney disease. He's alright now, but had this relatively random event happened to me (edit: because I had no health insurance), my family would have no money now, and we most likely would have been forced to sell our nice home and move across the country to be with my mom's family in Mississippi, because they would most likely have a place we could stay.

This would mean both my parents would be jobless, my brother would have to enroll in a new highschool, and my life would be dictated by having to come up with $250 worth of potassium and magnesium pills, until I got health insurance, which would be pretty hard to do given that situation.

Or, remember when KCD's house burned down? My mom just spoke with a family who had a $400K house and both parents worked as managers of local restaurants, but their house burned down and due to the circumstance of it (the youngest child started the fire after lighting a kleenex box on fire) they received only $20,000. With no house, and practically no money, the family was forced to move into a small apartment, but the community was supportive. However, their neighbors sued for $100,000 worth of damage from the fire, and the family declared bankruptcy but they were also evicted. The father lost his job, the mother was able to stay with a friend, but had an emotional breakdown and committed suicide.
Now the father is alone with 2 kids, jobless and homeless.
All this happened 6 years ago, and just now my mother has found them a home, a willing renter, and helped both kids and the father find jobs.


So shut the fuck up lowing.

Last edited by djphetal (2008-07-10 12:58:40)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

djphetal wrote:

What is so disgusting about your argument lowing is that you assume everyone has the means by which to get a job and be a functioning member of society, but there are so many factors that can derail one's most valiant efforts to be successful, that homelessness should be looked at as a societal condition rather than a personal one, and when it is a societal condition, the government should be responsible for at least working to solve the problem.

You saying "if they can stand outside a store, they can sit in a classroom" is such a fucking arrogant statement that I don't even know if I should qualify with a response, but I'll do it anyway. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?! Do you know how much it costs to go to college now, and for some people, how hard it is to be in school at any level? What if the person's parents were impoverished and didn't have a stable home, how would the kid be able to reliably do his homework, get to class, and focus? What if he were hungry?
What if his parents are abusive drug addicts, or what if he had a little brother with a disability, and because of their already low economic state, their parents were forced to spend all their money on health care for a dying child, and couldn't help this kid?

This is the kind of thing I hear about frequently from my mom, and has really made me look differently at poverty. I hope someday you can see it as I do.

Also, maybe you don't remember but my brother was hospitalized for a potassium deficiency caused by a rare kidney disease. He's alright now, but had this relatively random event happened to me, my family would have no money now, and we most likely would have been forced to sell our nice home and move across the country to be with my mom's family in Mississippi, because they would most likely have a place we could stay.

This would mean both my parents would be jobless, my brother would have to enroll in a new highschool, and my life would be dictated by having to come up with $250 worth of potassium and magnesium pills, until I got health insurance, which would be pretty hard to do given that situation.

Or, remember when KCD's house burned down? My mom just spoke with a family who had a $400K house and both parents worked as managers of local restaurants, but their house burned down and due to the circumstance of it (the youngest child started the fire after lighting a kleenex box on fire) they received only $20,000. With no house, and practically no money, the family was forced to move into a small apartment, but the community was supportive. However, their neighbors sued for $100,000 worth of damage from the fire, and the family declared bankruptcy but they were also evicted. The father lost his job, the mother was able to stay with a friend, but had an emotional breakdown and committed suicide.
Now the father is alone with 2 kids, jobless and homeless.
All this happened 6 years ago, and just now my mother has found them a home, a willing renter, and helped both kids and the father find jobs.


So shut the fuck up lowing.
Well, like I said several times and can not acknowledgement from it....I do now, and have always supported those that help themselves....

The things you speak of, although tragic are in fact temporary issues, they are not a life style. Are you will ing to concede that NOT everyone has these types ofevents happen to them in their lives and are simply lazy leeches, like the 4 year Katrina "victims" who after 4 years can seem to find a place to live, or a job? These are the people I refer to. The problem is, you can not acknowledge that since by doing so, you would have no argument for maintaining a welfare state.
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6757|Oregon

lowing wrote:

... like the 4 year Katrina "victims" who after 4 years can seem to find a place to live, or a job? These are the people I refer to. The problem is, you can not acknowledge that since by doing so, you would have no argument for maintaining a welfare state.
The job market, as well as the housing market in New Orleans right now is supportive of less than 1/2 of the people who are there. It's a miracle that so many people have found their way back to functional life, and even then "functional" doesn't even describe it... And that problem isn't just in New Orleans. It exists in most of the area that was hit by katrina.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6706

lowing wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:


Tax everyone the same or on what they spend and you will hear no complaints from me.
The problem with flat taxes is where do you get the rest of the money from? To keep the same government revenue you have to ramp up taxes on the poor and drop them for the rich. If you just drop taxes for the rich the governement has to cut services and shoots the economy/society in the foot.
see fair tax
see criticism of fair tax.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

djphetal wrote:

lowing wrote:

... like the 4 year Katrina "victims" who after 4 years can seem to find a place to live, or a job? These are the people I refer to. The problem is, you can not acknowledge that since by doing so, you would have no argument for maintaining a welfare state.
The job market, as well as the housing market in New Orleans right now is supportive of less than 1/2 of the people who are there. It's a miracle that so many people have found their way back to functional life, and even then "functional" doesn't even describe it... And that problem isn't just in New Orleans. It exists in most of the area that was hit by katrina.
Gee I wonder if anyome evet thought of moving to where there work is...............Nehhhhhhhh that idea is so crazy it just might work!!!

All I read in your post are excuses...........It is not a miracle that so many people found their way back to a functional life.......They pursued it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

The problem with flat taxes is where do you get the rest of the money from? To keep the same government revenue you have to ramp up taxes on the poor and drop them for the rich. If you just drop taxes for the rich the governement has to cut services and shoots the economy/society in the foot.
see fair tax
see criticism of fair tax.
see answering the critics of the fair tax
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6757|Oregon

lowing wrote:

djphetal wrote:

lowing wrote:

... like the 4 year Katrina "victims" who after 4 years can seem to find a place to live, or a job? These are the people I refer to. The problem is, you can not acknowledge that since by doing so, you would have no argument for maintaining a welfare state.
The job market, as well as the housing market in New Orleans right now is supportive of less than 1/2 of the people who are there. It's a miracle that so many people have found their way back to functional life, and even then "functional" doesn't even describe it... And that problem isn't just in New Orleans. It exists in most of the area that was hit by katrina.
Gee I wonder if anyome evet thought of moving to where there work is...............Nehhhhhhhh that idea is so crazy it just might work!!!

All I read in your post are excuses...........It is not a miracle that so many people found their way back to a functional life.......They pursued it.
"moving to where work is" often costs thousands of dollars, and is far harder than packing up a car (which many of these people don't have) and going. Plenty of people HAVE thought of that. Those in New Orleans who were able to leave have. Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Northern Louisiana, Georgia, Tennessee and Florida have seen a lot of Katrina refugees come in to find housing and work, but as I said, the job marked is bad all along the gulf coast, and in the entirety of America.

But lowing, if you had no house, no car, only a few clothes and enough money and income to buy a burger or two a day, tell me how you would move? And what would you do once you got there?
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7137
so everyone is arguing with Lowing...
are you cool with handing out your hard earned money to someone who doesn't feel like doing anything
or think it's unfare to ask for a service or some type of effort to better themselves if they can,mentally/physically etc?

If so send me money... i need a new graphics card... lol... seriously though ...  What are your real world solutions to dealing with homeless people... not attacking... just wondering?

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2008-07-10 15:31:21)

Love is the answer
PureFodder
Member
+225|6706

lowing wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:


see fair tax
see criticism of fair tax.
see answering the critics of the fair tax
Haven't seen any sensible ones
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

djphetal wrote:

lowing wrote:

djphetal wrote:


The job market, as well as the housing market in New Orleans right now is supportive of less than 1/2 of the people who are there. It's a miracle that so many people have found their way back to functional life, and even then "functional" doesn't even describe it... And that problem isn't just in New Orleans. It exists in most of the area that was hit by katrina.
Gee I wonder if anyome evet thought of moving to where there work is...............Nehhhhhhhh that idea is so crazy it just might work!!!

All I read in your post are excuses...........It is not a miracle that so many people found their way back to a functional life.......They pursued it.
"moving to where work is" often costs thousands of dollars, and is far harder than packing up a car (which many of these people don't have) and going. Plenty of people HAVE thought of that. Those in New Orleans who were able to leave have. Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Northern Louisiana, Georgia, Tennessee and Florida have seen a lot of Katrina refugees come in to find housing and work, but as I said, the job marked is bad all along the gulf coast, and in the entirety of America.

But lowing, if you had no house, no car, only a few clothes and enough money and income to buy a burger or two a day, tell me how you would move? And what would you do once you got there?
Over the period of 4 YEARS!! I am gunna bet that there are no jobs for these people to move to, because they have no job skills in the first place, and didn't have shit even BEFORE that miracle of a Hurracane blow through which allowed them the perfect excuse for a lifetime of free living at our expense. Tragic for those who actually had a life built that was wiped out,( who have recovered by now for the most part) a god send for those that didn't have anything anyway.

I made sure I had job skills that I could use to make sure I would never be in that posititon, permanantly.  Just call me "lucky" I guess
san4
The Mas
+311|7109|NYC, a place to live

lowing wrote:

djphetal wrote:

lowing wrote:


Gee I wonder if anyome evet thought of moving to where there work is...............Nehhhhhhhh that idea is so crazy it just might work!!!

All I read in your post are excuses...........It is not a miracle that so many people found their way back to a functional life.......They pursued it.
"moving to where work is" often costs thousands of dollars, and is far harder than packing up a car (which many of these people don't have) and going. Plenty of people HAVE thought of that. Those in New Orleans who were able to leave have. Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Northern Louisiana, Georgia, Tennessee and Florida have seen a lot of Katrina refugees come in to find housing and work, but as I said, the job marked is bad all along the gulf coast, and in the entirety of America.

But lowing, if you had no house, no car, only a few clothes and enough money and income to buy a burger or two a day, tell me how you would move? And what would you do once you got there?
Over the period of 4 YEARS!! I am gunna bet that there are no jobs for these people to move to, because they have no job skills in the first place, and didn't have shit even BEFORE that miracle of a Hurracane blow through which allowed them the perfect excuse for a lifetime of free living at our expense. Tragic for those who actually had a life built that was wiped out,( who have recovered by now for the most part) a god send for those that didn't have anything anyway.

I made sure I had job skills that I could use to make sure I would never be in that posititon, permanantly.  Just call me "lucky" I guess
I would bet anything the people displaced by Katrina didn't grow up with a minimally adequate school to go to. I would bet anything you did. I would also bet that almost all these long-term Katrina victims were exposed to smoke, alcohol and drugs while in their mother's womb. I would be surprised if you were. I would even bet that among Katrina victims, the ones who have failed to get back on their feet after 4 years are the ones most likely to have grown up in amazingly horrible, dangerous, abusive and destructive environments.

You are blaming people because the environment they grew up in damaged them instead of preparing them for being responsible adults.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

san4 wrote:

lowing wrote:

djphetal wrote:

"moving to where work is" often costs thousands of dollars, and is far harder than packing up a car (which many of these people don't have) and going. Plenty of people HAVE thought of that. Those in New Orleans who were able to leave have. Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Northern Louisiana, Georgia, Tennessee and Florida have seen a lot of Katrina refugees come in to find housing and work, but as I said, the job marked is bad all along the gulf coast, and in the entirety of America.

But lowing, if you had no house, no car, only a few clothes and enough money and income to buy a burger or two a day, tell me how you would move? And what would you do once you got there?
Over the period of 4 YEARS!! I am gunna bet that there are no jobs for these people to move to, because they have no job skills in the first place, and didn't have shit even BEFORE that miracle of a Hurracane blow through which allowed them the perfect excuse for a lifetime of free living at our expense. Tragic for those who actually had a life built that was wiped out,( who have recovered by now for the most part) a god send for those that didn't have anything anyway.

I made sure I had job skills that I could use to make sure I would never be in that posititon, permanantly.  Just call me "lucky" I guess
I would bet anything the people displaced by Katrina didn't grow up with a minimally adequate school to go to. I would bet anything you did. I would also bet that almost all these long-term Katrina victims were exposed to smoke, alcohol and drugs while in their mother's womb. I would be surprised if you were. I would even bet that among Katrina victims, the ones who have failed to get back on their feet after 4 years are the ones most likely to have grown up in amazingly horrible, dangerous, abusive and destructive environments.

You are blaming people because the environment they grew up in damaged them instead of preparing them for being responsible adults.
Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhh, I didn't work for shit, or EARN shit, I just got lucky.....

So who here we go again.......If you do not want to blame an individual for their circumstances, who are we gunna blame this time.......I checked, the only other people to blame that are left are, the PEOPLE themselves, or Santa Claus....


So after 4 years, are you telling me these people are looking for a hand up, or an on going hand out??

Last edited by lowing (2008-07-11 07:24:18)

Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7111|Tampa Bay Florida

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

Sorry, if the homeless guy is strong enough to STAND outside a store, he is strong enough to SIT in a classroom..........Apparently you believe we are not products of our choices in life. We are all merely lucky and unlucky with no rhyme or reason to any of it...........Well...............I disagree.
Apparently you believe that someone's success or failure dependy singly upon how hard they try and nothing else, people live and work in a vacuum, unaffected by the surrounding world.

How hard you try certainly makes a difference, you won't get rich sitting on your ass all day, but there's absolutley no guarantee that working hard will reward you.

Your choices in life are determined primarily by your previous experiences in life, much of which you have little say in. You should read some books about determinism and free will, plus sociology and psychology, you may find many of your preconceptions melting away. You seem not to follow the fact that people are the product of their upbringing, experiences and biology. Three things you have little control over. Your beliefs are refuted by reality.

Remember that the average American works harder, longer and more productively now than 30 years ago, and earns less for all their hard work. Clearly this cannot be their fault, the average American IS working harder, but getting poorer.

lowing wrote:

I see, so basically you are saying ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations, they arre ALL victims of society. They have nothing to do with, or can influence their successes or failures....EVERYTHING is pure luck and unlucky circumstances.

Boy, quite a generalization ya got going there. I thought those were not allowed in this forum.
lowing, can you read?  When did purefodder say " ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations"?  He didn't even IMPLY it for christs sake.

Every time you post I'm more convinced you're doing this just to get on our nerves.  You see only what you want to see when someone argues with you.  It's either deliberate or you don't know how to debate, because nothing anyone ever says to you sticks.  It just bounces off your head.  And you still think your right, because you dismiss all facts that go against your opinions.

Purefodder owned you and you didnt even realize it... /thread
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

Spearhead wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

lowing wrote:

Sorry, if the homeless guy is strong enough to STAND outside a store, he is strong enough to SIT in a classroom..........Apparently you believe we are not products of our choices in life. We are all merely lucky and unlucky with no rhyme or reason to any of it...........Well...............I disagree.
Apparently you believe that someone's success or failure dependy singly upon how hard they try and nothing else, people live and work in a vacuum, unaffected by the surrounding world.

How hard you try certainly makes a difference, you won't get rich sitting on your ass all day, but there's absolutley no guarantee that working hard will reward you.

Your choices in life are determined primarily by your previous experiences in life, much of which you have little say in. You should read some books about determinism and free will, plus sociology and psychology, you may find many of your preconceptions melting away. You seem not to follow the fact that people are the product of their upbringing, experiences and biology. Three things you have little control over. Your beliefs are refuted by reality.

Remember that the average American works harder, longer and more productively now than 30 years ago, and earns less for all their hard work. Clearly this cannot be their fault, the average American IS working harder, but getting poorer.

lowing wrote:

I see, so basically you are saying ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations, they arre ALL victims of society. They have nothing to do with, or can influence their successes or failures....EVERYTHING is pure luck and unlucky circumstances.

Boy, quite a generalization ya got going there. I thought those were not allowed in this forum.
lowing, can you read?  When did purefodder say " ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations"?  He didn't even IMPLY it for christs sake.

Every time you post I'm more convinced you're doing this just to get on our nerves.  You see only what you want to see when someone argues with you.  It's either deliberate or you don't know how to debate, because nothing anyone ever says to you sticks.  It just bounces off your head.  And you still think your right, because you dismiss all facts that go against your opinions.

Purefodder owned you and you didnt even realize it... /thread
Well, gee I guess I will be the only one in this forum who thinks they are right.....

I have stated many many times, excuses and past are irrelevent, what you do in the present is the only thing that matters regardless as t owhat hand you are dealt...All I hear from you all is reasons and excuses, you mention and blame EVERYTHING except ownership of the decisions of the person in question.

He is right though, your past experiences DO come into play with your present situation, so I suggest you make positive past experiences.

Don't look now, but we all live in the same country and the same society, the only difference arethose willing t oswim and those that sit around and wait for a life preserver.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7111|Tampa Bay Florida

lowing wrote:

All I hear from you all is reasons and excuses, you mention and blame EVERYTHING except ownership of the decisions of the person in question.
Show me EXACTLY how I did that.  Right now... go find it and post it here.  Then EXPLAIN what you mean... its funny, do you dismiss facts and logic as "excuses"? 

lowing[/quote wrote:


He is right though, your past experiences DO come into play with your present situation, so I suggest you make positive past experiences.
Um, lowing.... *sigh* Thanks for proving everything I said in my post above.

lowing wrote:

Don't look now, but we all live in the same country and the same society, the only difference arethose willing t oswim and those that sit around and wait for a life preserver.
Is that personal or what?  You don't know ANY of us in real life.  Yet you accuse us of numerous things you have no way of knowing just because we don't agree with your policy of "everyones on their own, if you fall behind in life, FUCK YOU its your fault for being weak" attitude towards life.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7072|USA

Spearhead wrote:

lowing wrote:

All I hear from you all is reasons and excuses, you mention and blame EVERYTHING except ownership of the decisions of the person in question.
Show me EXACTLY how I did that.  Right now... go find it and post it here.  Then EXPLAIN what you mean... its funny, do you dismiss facts and logic as "excuses"? 

lowing[/quote wrote:


He is right though, your past experiences DO come into play with your present situation, so I suggest you make positive past experiences.
Um, lowing.... *sigh* Thanks for proving everything I said in my post above.

lowing wrote:

Don't look now, but we all live in the same country and the same society, the only difference arethose willing t oswim and those that sit around and wait for a life preserver.
Is that personal or what?  You don't know ANY of us in real life.  Yet you accuse us of numerous things you have no way of knowing just because we don't agree with your policy of "everyones on their own, if you fall behind in life, FUCK YOU its your fault for being weak" attitude towards life.
1. Not personal, I speak generally

2. Ummm yer welcome?? so the personal responsibility that you exercise leads to a stable life in your 20's directly affects you in your 30's and 40's...Goes toward personal responsibility, not the fact that your daddy kicked your ass.

3. Nope, nothing I say is personal, I speak to the masses and my words apply to who is applicable.

Last edited by lowing (2008-07-11 11:36:55)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6832|'Murka

US Federal Budget (2007): $2.77 trillion
US GDP (2007): $13.5 trillion

If a flat tax is instituted, based on the percentage of GDP required to fund the federal government, the flat tax rate comes to 21%. That's income, corporate, payroll...everything. Bump it up to an even 25% and you've got an extra $540B each year to put against the national debt.

Totally unworkable.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
SealXo
Member
+309|6957
you guys are taking this wayyyyy to literally
liquix
Member
+51|6875|Peoples Republic of Portland
i hate the less fortunate!!

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