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2008-07-17 10:30:46
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6912|Northern California
This is an interesting topic.  It shows that "gun-control" is both working, but it's also not working.

Let me elaborate....

Taking away guns from the lawful population has removed guns from...the lawful population.  This is a fact.  There's probably less guns to steal and circulate.  The criminals with guns, well I'm sure they're still doing their thing.

It's not working: Well, I've been reading some articles this week talking about the skyrocketing KNIFE-related homicide going on in the UK.  It seems the criminals will still find a way to do their crime...and now, it's more gruesome than ever...I know I'd rather be shot than stabbed...stabbings kill more than gunshots too.  So now what, ban knives?  HOw will they cut their meat?

Gun control in UK = evolving the issue, not stopping it.
2008-07-17 10:39:44
logitech487
Member
+16|6824|From The State Of Taxes
Cops in the U.K. wear vests that are not only bullet proof but knife proof also . A regular bullet proof vest will not stop a knife .
2008-07-17 10:54:04
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7187|UK

IRONCHEF wrote:

This is an interesting topic.  It shows that "gun-control" is both working, but it's also not working.

Let me elaborate....

Taking away guns from the lawful population has removed guns from...the lawful population.  This is a fact.  There's probably less guns to steal and circulate.  The criminals with guns, well I'm sure they're still doing their thing.

It's not working: Well, I've been reading some articles this week talking about the skyrocketing KNIFE-related homicide going on in the UK.  It seems the criminals will still find a way to do their crime...and now, it's more gruesome than ever...I know I'd rather be shot than stabbed...stabbings kill more than gunshots too.  So now what, ban knives?  HOw will they cut their meat?

Gun control in UK = evolving the issue, not stopping it.
Knife crime has actually been steady for years I think. Im pretty sure its just a new media storm that is focusing on knife crime making it feel like knife crime is rising.

Last edited by Vilham (2008-07-17 10:57:37)

2008-07-17 11:01:59
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7178|Argentina

Vilham wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

This is an interesting topic.  It shows that "gun-control" is both working, but it's also not working.

Let me elaborate....

Taking away guns from the lawful population has removed guns from...the lawful population.  This is a fact.  There's probably less guns to steal and circulate.  The criminals with guns, well I'm sure they're still doing their thing.

It's not working: Well, I've been reading some articles this week talking about the skyrocketing KNIFE-related homicide going on in the UK.  It seems the criminals will still find a way to do their crime...and now, it's more gruesome than ever...I know I'd rather be shot than stabbed...stabbings kill more than gunshots too.  So now what, ban knives?  HOw will they cut their meat?

Gun control in UK = evolving the issue, not stopping it.
Knife crime has actually been steady for years I think. Im pretty sure its just a new media storm that is focusing on knife crime making it feel like knife crime is rising.
Maybe the fall in firearm crimes makes knife crimes to impact more in the stats, which doesn't necessarily mean that knife crimes have increased.
2008-07-17 11:20:48
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6963|Texas - Bigger than France
Are there more cops this year compared to last?
2008-07-17 11:36:20
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Did anyone else notice gun crime and murder was up according to the posted article?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-07-17 11:44:57
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6963|Texas - Bigger than France

Kmarion wrote:

Did anyone else notice gun crime and murder was up according to the posted article?
Yes, but really it doesn't matter either way.  You can kill someone with five-finger mary if you choose.

If the crime rate goes down, great.  The question is why did it go down?

Unemployment rate?  Poverty? Age breakdown of population?  Change in laws?  Cops per capita?  Longer jail sentences?  Better reform of those jailed?  Increase in cop bribes?

A cultural difference between the countries re: gun toting isn't going to explain why there was a drop in crime.  UK never put guns into the hands of their law-abiding police.
2008-07-17 11:57:03
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Pug wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Did anyone else notice gun crime and murder was up according to the posted article?
Yes, but really it doesn't matter either way.  You can kill someone with five-finger mary if you choose.

If the crime rate goes down, great.  The question is why did it go down?

Unemployment rate?  Poverty? Age breakdown of population?  Change in laws?  Cops per capita?  Longer jail sentences?  Better reform of those jailed?  Increase in cop bribes?

A cultural difference between the countries re: gun toting isn't going to explain why there was a drop in crime.  UK never put guns into the hands of their law-abiding police.
More effective technology driven law enforcement and prevention I tend to think. These drops over the years are typical in most civilized societies. Every once and awhile you will see a spike. But the long term outlook seems to be positive. For instance, the US:

https://i35.tinypic.com/16m51r8.gif
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-07-17 12:06:16
PureFodder
Member
+225|6706

IRONCHEF wrote:

This is an interesting topic.  It shows that "gun-control" is both working, but it's also not working.

Let me elaborate....

Taking away guns from the lawful population has removed guns from...the lawful population.  This is a fact.  There's probably less guns to steal and circulate.  The criminals with guns, well I'm sure they're still doing their thing.

It's not working: Well, I've been reading some articles this week talking about the skyrocketing KNIFE-related homicide going on in the UK.  It seems the criminals will still find a way to do their crime...and now, it's more gruesome than ever...I know I'd rather be shot than stabbed...stabbings kill more than gunshots too.  So now what, ban knives?  HOw will they cut their meat?

Gun control in UK = evolving the issue, not stopping it.
The homicide rate excluding gun homicide in the US is the same as the UK. Ypu're as likely to get stabbed in the US as the UK, you're just way less likely to get shot in the UK.
2008-07-17 12:16:00
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6963|Texas - Bigger than France
https://i35.tinypic.com/16m51r8.gif


And if I had a photo account and photoshop skills I'd put an arrow on the peak labeling it as "The First Episode of Hangin' with Mr. Cooper airs" or "Kerry gets a job".


I'm betting that the drop in crime coincides with the economy.
2008-07-17 12:21:17
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7053|949

sergeriver wrote:

Police-recorded crime in England and Wales fell 9% in the 12 months to March, latest figures suggest.  The annual crime report for 2007-2008 reveals the longest recorded period of falling crime - down 48% from 1995.

Police officers in UK aren't equipped with firearms, although they are issued with other lethal and non lethal equipment, depending on each county.  So, they don't carry firearms, yet they managed to get crime rates down.
But the firearm laws were the same (i.e. the police weren't carrying firearms before this study was carried out), so that basically is of no correlation to this story, right?
2008-07-17 12:39:45
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6912|Northern California
No, knife crimes in the UK ARE increasing since the gun ban.  I wasn't just guessing.
GOOGLE IT YOURSELF.

This highly suggests evolution in crime tactics (even though it's actually reverting to an older tactic), resourcefulness, and an utter failure in reducing crime from banning guns in the UK.  UK = fail.

And yeah!!  GO get 'em Brownie!  Show those perps what knifing looks like (since they apparently don't look at their victims after knifing them)!  That'll stop them from stabbing people...  derrrrrr..  BROWN = fail.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= … p;refer=uk
Prime Minister Gordon Brown said his government will tackle knife crime by targeting ``problem families'' with disruptive children after a spate of fatal stabbings in the U.K.

More than 110,000 families whose children carry and use knives will receive ``parenting supervision,'' and the worst cases will be evicted from social housing unless their children's behavior improves, Brown told reporters in London.

``What I want to see is anybody who is using a knife goes to prison,'' Brown said during his monthly press conference today. ``Anybody who is carrying a knife is subject to either prison or a strong community payback that forces them to give service to the community.''

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-07-17 12:42:38)

2008-07-17 12:41:44
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7178|Argentina

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Police-recorded crime in England and Wales fell 9% in the 12 months to March, latest figures suggest.  The annual crime report for 2007-2008 reveals the longest recorded period of falling crime - down 48% from 1995.

Police officers in UK aren't equipped with firearms, although they are issued with other lethal and non lethal equipment, depending on each county.  So, they don't carry firearms, yet they managed to get crime rates down.
But the firearm laws were the same (i.e. the police weren't carrying firearms before this study was carried out), so that basically is of no correlation to this story, right?
If you compare it to last year, well no, you are right, but compared to 1995 I dunno, maybe some Brits could enlighten us on that.  My point is you can curb crime with non armed (with firearms) police.
2008-07-17 12:49:36
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,991|7053|949

sergeriver wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Police-recorded crime in England and Wales fell 9% in the 12 months to March, latest figures suggest.  The annual crime report for 2007-2008 reveals the longest recorded period of falling crime - down 48% from 1995.

Police officers in UK aren't equipped with firearms, although they are issued with other lethal and non lethal equipment, depending on each county.  So, they don't carry firearms, yet they managed to get crime rates down.
But the firearm laws were the same (i.e. the police weren't carrying firearms before this study was carried out), so that basically is of no correlation to this story, right?
If you compare it to last year, well no, you are right, but compared to 1995 I dunno, maybe some Brits could enlighten us on that.  My point is you can curb crime with non armed (with firearms) police.
But you see, I could show a report where recorded crime declined in the US, or one state, or one county, and make the argument that armed (with firearms) police can curb crime too.

The fact of the matter is, the idea that police carry (or don't carry) firearms is of little relevance to overall crime rates dropping or rising.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2008-07-17 12:51:33)

2008-07-17 12:53:56
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7136|US

sergeriver wrote:

If you compare it to last year, well no, you are right, but compared to 1995 I dunno, maybe some Brits could enlighten us on that.  My point is you can curb crime with non armed (with firearms) police.
Of course you can.  The question becomes whether or not allowing the police to carry firearms helps them do their job better.  As of yet, I have seen no scientific comparisons.

For gun control in general, the UK vs. US reporting techniques are so different, it makes comparisons difficult (at least without decently complicated statistical manipulation).  For pre-firearm ban UK vs. post-ban UK, there were also reporting changes and variations in type and abundance of crime (with social and economic changes, as well).  Stats I have seen indicate a rising level of reported gun-related crime in the UK (at least until 2005, which was where my stats ended). 

In sum, crime control is not a single-variable issue.  It is related to culture, economics, local and national justice systems, and (perhaps) gun control (although very differing effects are seen, IMO, based on other factor's influence).
2008-07-17 13:25:51
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6815|The Gem Saloon
hey now, lets get off the whole knife bashing thing
2008-07-17 13:26:40
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6912|Northern California
I blame custom knife makers for all crime!
2008-07-17 13:39:21
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6963|Texas - Bigger than France

Parker wrote:

hey now, lets get off the whole knife bashing thing
Sounds like you need to open up a UK branch.
2008-07-17 13:50:44
jord
Member
+2,382|7099|The North, beyond the wall.

IRONCHEF wrote:

..I know I'd rather be shot than stabbed...stabbings kill more than gunshots too.
I'd rather be stabbed, I can't believe getting shot is less fatal than getting stabbed.
2008-07-17 14:15:59
imortal
Member
+240|7086|Austin, TX

jord wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

..I know I'd rather be shot than stabbed...stabbings kill more than gunshots too.
I'd rather be stabbed, I can't believe getting shot is less fatal than getting stabbed.
Ironchef is quite right, actually,  It has to do with the wounding methods.  I bullet will either push into and straight through you, causing relatively little damage internally, or it will enter and stop in you.  either way, you have a basically round hole in your body.  The hydrostatic shock can cause some additional damage, but that is better for momentary stopping effects.

A knife, especially a sizeable one used for fighting will push a good channel into you, but because one edge is sharp, it will cause more bleeding.  Depending how you cut or stab, it could cause a LOT more bleeding and damage to internal organs.

Oh, and just for giggles.  A solid hard stab with a knife has about as much kinetic energy than a 9mm bullet.  We did not switch to guns for power; we did it for range.  No one in their right mind should underestimate a knife held by someone proficient in its use.
2008-07-17 14:20:42
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6815|The Gem Saloon
https://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/fs/get_to1.jpg
2008-07-17 14:23:39
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7187|UK

IRONCHEF wrote:

No, knife crimes in the UK ARE increasing since the gun ban.  I wasn't just guessing.
GOOGLE IT YOURSELF.

This highly suggests evolution in crime tactics (even though it's actually reverting to an older tactic), resourcefulness, and an utter failure in reducing crime from banning guns in the UK.  UK = fail.

And yeah!!  GO get 'em Brownie!  Show those perps what knifing looks like (since they apparently don't look at their victims after knifing them)!  That'll stop them from stabbing people...  derrrrrr..  BROWN = fail.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= … p;refer=uk
Prime Minister Gordon Brown said his government will tackle knife crime by targeting ``problem families'' with disruptive children after a spate of fatal stabbings in the U.K.

More than 110,000 families whose children carry and use knives will receive ``parenting supervision,'' and the worst cases will be evicted from social housing unless their children's behavior improves, Brown told reporters in London.

``What I want to see is anybody who is using a knife goes to prison,'' Brown said during his monthly press conference today. ``Anybody who is carrying a knife is subject to either prison or a strong community payback that forces them to give service to the community.''
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u … 347649.ece

Knife crime is not rising. Your google search fails entirely seeing as it has no police or government reports on crime rates, its all individual reports on separate knife crime.

You know whats funny as well?

You are just as likely to be attacked with a knife in the US as in the UK.

Therefore based on your own logic US = fail. I really laugh at gun nuts that still try to claim guns reduce crime. Have fun with your 6x higher homicide rate.

Btw guess what banning guns did? O it lowered crime.
2008-07-17 14:25:05
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7187|UK

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The fact of the matter is, the idea that police carry (or don't carry) firearms is of little relevance to overall crime rates dropping or rising.
Really?

Might as well ban guns then if they don't make a positive difference.
2008-07-17 14:25:29
imortal
Member
+240|7086|Austin, TX

Parker wrote:

http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/fs/get_to1.jpg
Nice, but you forgot some nice ones from the back: the descending aorta and the renal arteries.  You wanna know how to hit the descendig aorta, just listen to Riddick in Pitch Black.  It is actually pretty accurate.

My personal favorite is the subclavian, though.
2008-07-17 14:26:00
logitech487
Member
+16|6824|From The State Of Taxes
The Journal of Trauma (36:4 pp516-524) looked at all injury admissions to a Seattle hospital over a six year period. *The mortality rate for gunshot wounds was 22% while that for stab wounds was 4%. *Even among patients that survived, gunshot wounds were more serious -- the mean cost of treatment for these patients was more than twice that for stab wounds.

 

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