Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7036|do not disturb

wrote:

F. William Engdahl
www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/
Jul 16, 2008

The announcement by US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson together with Federal Reserve chief Bernanke, that the US Government will bailout the two largest guarantors of housing mortgage debt - the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - far from calming financial markets, has confirmed what we have said repeatedly in this space: The Financial Tsunami which began in August 2007 in the relatively small "sub-prime" high risk US mortgage securitization market, far from being over, is only gathering momentum. As with the Tsunami which devastated Asia in wave after terrifying wave in December 2004, the financial Tsunami we are witnessing is a low-amplitude, long-wave phenomenon of trillions of dollars of financial securities being unwound, defaulted on, dumped on the market. But the scale of the latest wave to hit, the collapse of confidence in the two Government-Sponsored Entities, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, is a harbinger of worse to come in what will be the most devastating financial and economic catastrophe in United States history. The impact will be felt globally.

The Royal Bank of Scotland, one of the largest financial institutions in the EU has warned its clients "A very nasty period is soon to be upon us - be prepared." They expect the S&P-500 index of US stocks, one of the broadest stock indices in Wall Street used by hedge funds, banks, pension funds could lose almost 23% by September as in their term, "all the chickens come home to roost" from the excesses of the US-led securitization revolution that took hold after the dot.com bubble burst and Greenspan lowered US interest rates to levels not sustained since the 1930's Great Depression.

This all will be seen in history as the disastrous Alan Greenspan "Revolution in Finance," - the experiment in Asset Backed Securitization, a mad attempt to bundle risk in loans, "securitize" them in new bonds, insure them via specialized insurers called "monoline" insurers (they only insured financial risks in bonds), rate them thereby via Moody's and S&P as AAA, highest grade. All that was done so that pension funds and banks around the world would assume they were high quality debt paying even higher interest than safe US Government bonds.

Fed in Panic Mode

While he is getting praise in the financial media for his "innovative" and quick reactions to the un-raveling crisis, Fed chairman Ben Bernanke in reality is in a panic mode with little short of hyperinflationary tools at hand to deal with the crisis. Yet, his room to act is increasingly bound by the soaring asset price inflation in food and oil which is pushing consumer price inflation to new highs even by the doctored "core inflation" model of the Fed.

If Bernanke continues to act to provide unlimited liquidity to prevent a banking system collapse, he risks destroying the US corporate and Treasury bond market and with it the dollar. If Bernanke acts to save the heart of the US capital market - its bond market - by raising interest rates, its only anti-inflation weapon, it will only trigger the next even more devastating round in Tsunami shock waves.

The real significance of the Fannie Mae bailout

The US government passed the law creating Fannie Mae in 1938 during the Great Depression as part of President Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal. It was intended to be a private entity but "government sponsored" that would enable Americans to finance buying of homes, as part of an economic recovery attempt. Freddie Mac was formed by Congress in 1970, to help revive the home loan market. Congress started the companies to promote home buying and their charters give the Treasury the authority to extend a $2.25 billion credit line.

The problems in the privately-owned Government "Sponsored" Entities or GSEs as they are technically known, is that Congress tried to fudge on whether they were subject to US Government guarantee in event of a financial crisis as the present. Before now, it always appeared a manageable problem.

No more.

The United States economy is in the early phase of its worst housing price collapse since the 1930's. No end is in sight. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, as private stock companies, have gone to excesses in leveraging their risk, most as many private banks did. The financial market bought the bonds of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac because they bet that the two were "Too Big To Fail," i.e. that in a crisis the Government, that is the US taxpayer, would be forced to step in and bail them out.

The two, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, either own or guarantee about half of the $12 trillion in outstanding US home mortgage loans, or about $6 trillion. To put that number into perspective, the entire 27 member states of the European Union in 2006 had an annual GDP of slightly more than $12 trillion, so $6 trillion would be half the GDP of the combined European Union economies, and almost three times the GDP of the Federal Republic of Germany.

In addition to their home mortgage loans, Fannie Mae has another $831 billion in outstanding corporate bonds and Freddie Mac has $644 billion in corporate bonds.

Freddie Mac owes $5.2 billion more than its assets today are worth meaning under current US "fair value" accounting rules, it is insolvent. Fair value of Fannie Mae assets has dropped 66% to $12 billion and may as well go negative next quarter. As the home prices continue to fall across America, and corporate bankruptcies spread, the size of the negative values of the two will explode.

On July 14, symbolically the anniversary of Bastille Day, US Treasury Secretary Paulson, former chairman of the powerful Wall Street investment bank Goldman Sachs, stood on the steps of the US Treasury building in Washington, a clear attempt to add psychological gravitas, and announced that the Bush Administration would submit a bill proposal to Congress to make taxpayer guarantee of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae explicit. In effect, in the present crisis it will mean nationalization of the $6 trillion agencies.

The bailout by Paulson was accompanied by a statement by Bernanke that the Fed stood ready to pump unlimited liquidity into the two companies.

The Federal Reserve is rapidly becoming the world's largest financial garbage dump as for months it has agreed to accept banks' Asset Backed Securities including sub-prime real estate bonds as collateral in return for US Treasury bond purchases. Now it agrees to add potentially $6 trillion in GSE real estate debt to that.

However, the disaster in the two private companies was obvious as far back as 2003 when grave accounting abuses in the two companies were made public. In 2003 then President of the St. Louis Federal Reserve, William Poole publicly called for the US Government to cut its implied guarantee of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae claiming then that the two lacked capital to weather severe financial crisis. Poole, whose warnings were dismissed by then Fed Chairman Greenspan, called repeatedly in 2006 and again in 2007 for Congress to repeal their charters and avoid the predictable taxpayer cost of a huge bailout.

As financial investors warn the Paulson bailout is not a bailout of the US economy but a direct bailout of his Wall Street financial cronies. What until recently had been the largest bank in terms of loans outstanding, Citigroup in New York, has been forced to raise billions in capital from Sovereign Wealth Funds in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere to remain in business. In its May announcement, Citigroup's new Chairman Vikram Pandit announced plans to reduce the bank's $2.2 billion balance sheet of liabilities. However, he never mentioned an added $1.1 trillion in Citigroup "off balance sheet" liabilities which include some of the highest risk deals in the US real estate and securitization era it so strongly backed. The Financial Accounting Standards Board in Connecticut, the official body defining bank accounting rules is demanding tighter disclosure standards. Analysts fear Citigroup could face devastating new losses as a result with value of liabilities exceeding the bank's $90 billion market value. In December 2006 prior to the onset of the Tsunami crisis, Citigroup had a market value of more than $270 billion.
This is funny, how could have the American people ever expected this, with all the cheer leading on the news about how "things are improving"? We are not in recession? Yea, banks all over are going bankrupt, with much more to join. Major sectors of the economy have been taking a beating. GM will certainly go bankrupt, as well as Ford. Wachovia looks mortally wounded, and it is doubtful Citigroup can survive in one piece. Major Airlines will start to go bust if oil sustains these high prices. It isn't looking too good.


(October 2006)

Amazing these assholes get so much airtime while they have been so wrong. There have been a few people smart enough to see we had a housing bubble like Peter Schiff, and who have been telling you reality; things will get worse before they get better. These over optimistic bulls have been proven wrong time and time again, and yet no complaint, but when someone yells "fire" in a crowded theater, you're a fucking jerk. No one wants to hear it. But would you like your doctor to tell you that you are getting better as cancer continues to spread throughout you?

Still think things aren't that bad? There is a bubble in the bond market, and when it pops it will be the most devastating. What does it mean exactly? Mass devaluation of the dollar from a sell off of T-Bonds and T-Bills as foreigners flee to safety from the dollar, and the dollar will never recover. If you think gas is expensive now, it will look pretty darn cheap compared to then, and so will everything.

Cicero wrote:

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear."
Our government has sold us out. They don't bring real change, nor fix our real problems. They promise the people multitudes to get reelected, and think of how to pay for all of it... never. Our debt and obligations, as well as these bailouts and future ones to come, can not be meet with taxing the people or borrowing. Our line of credit has been taped out, and our only way to pay for it is to create tens of trillions of dollars out of thin air. If the world doesn't start a mass sell off of dollars before that, they will then.

We are headed into a terrible inflationary depression soon, and it is unavoidable. Our fate is sealed. It saddens me it has come to this. Call me crazy or kooky (or a "crack head" too) , or w/e, but I wish you all the best of luck for you and your families. I really hope I'm wrong.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6950|Global Command
2 things;

over 1000 thousand banks went under in the 1990's and we are still here.


Freddy and Fanny are accused of cooking their books. Been under investigation since 1994.

Same thing Enron did. Except Enron was 380+- million and this is 6-20 billion.

And these banks are government run.

Get it?

These companies have fucked everybody, just like Enron.
Where is the CEO on trial?
The hearings?

Who's going to put the government employees on trial for this plunder and economic warfare?
Nobody.


I suggest buying freeze dried food and ammo. Lot's of it.


I wish I could. But I am broke.
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7061|Your moms bedroom
It is scary to see people lined up a bank to withdraw their money as well. I mean, shit, when the line goes around the block with people taking ALL of thier money out.

with the Indymac bank or whatever it is

Last edited by Locoloki (2008-07-16 18:26:50)

san4
The Mas
+311|7109|NYC, a place to live
Christ, how about a summary for people whose eyes hurt?

I agree, attacking short sellers is ridiculous. I also agree that lots of big companies are going to go bankrupt, and many are already insolvent but hide it with accounting tricks and complicit creditors.

It's hard to say what the result will be except that it's going to be really difficult to get a loan from banks that have no money.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6764|tropical regions of london
join the army.  3 hots and a cot and decent pay.
CaptainSpaulding71
Member
+119|6778|CA, USA

God Save the Queen wrote:

join the army.  3 hots and a cot and decent pay.
want to, but realistically can't.  would lose house due to cutting my pay to 1/5th it's current level.  Also wife would leave me - because of losing the house.  if house was paid for, i'd already have enlisted.  i know i know...shitty excuse but i'm just being real here.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6764|tropical regions of london
become an officer.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina
If Wachovia falls, who do you think will buy them?  I ask because I do my banking with them.
CaptainSpaulding71
Member
+119|6778|CA, USA

God Save the Queen wrote:

become an officer.
i hear you - and 2nd LT was what i was basing my pay cut figure on.  so unfortunately i can't make it work.  i should have joined before i bought a house in CA.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7001|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Turquoise wrote:

If Wachovia falls, who do you think will buy them?  I ask because I do my banking with them.
probably some random investment group.  they're the 4th or 5th largest bank so it's kinda hard for any of the other big players like Bank Of America or Wells Fargo to legally grab them.  Maybe some European firm.  No one in the financial sector is making big moves right now, unless it's out of the bargain bin, like countrywide.  They're either wading in their own shit, like Citi and Washington mutual, or they're riding the downturn.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7036|do not disturb

God Save the Queen wrote:

join the army.  3 hots and a cot and decent pay.
If we go to war with Iran, you figure there will be a draft? Might as well join...

Turquoise wrote:

If Wachovia falls, who do you think will buy them?  I ask because I do my banking with them.
According to Merrel Lynch JPMorgan. Wouldn't surprise me if JPMorgan swallowed a few banks down the road.

pierro wrote:

When it comes to the two mortgage banks...if they're to important to fail, they are encouraged to take risks (knowing profits will be theirs and losses socialized)...isn't that an argument for regulating/making them less private to stop this? Same can be said for financial companies i.e. bear sterns which suffered from Greenspan's disastrous deregulation attempts and politically motivated interest rate cuts. To me, the lesson from this is move left and regulate (it's a shame, the republicans i.e. Eisenhower republicans used to be the party of fiscal discipline). Also, I don't tend to trust naysayers any more then optimists because saying the market will go south is like saying there will eventually be an earthquake...the market will always go down and the few that pick the right reasons are considered prophets....The OP's main argument seems to be citing the problems with inflation (which will bring about the bond crash)... but in the US it's not enormous (especially at a historical), also in terms of PPP we are fourth (behind bermuda, luxeomberg and another small country) so we have a long way to fall too...and in terms of oil in Europe they pay 2x as much as us...sometimes more (because of taxes) and their economy isn't dead, even if it's made up of inefficient socialist nanny states (mostly)
Lowering interest rates (or raising them) artificially could be said to be regulatory no? Low interest rates is like creating an algae bloom by adding excess nutrients. I wouldn't consider regulating the algae, but getting rid of the jerk who was the catalyst, in this case the Fed. The inflation argument stands btw. CPI numbers are disputable. So is PPI. Inflation might be worse if we weren't exporting it so much (food prices are soaring, so is everything else across the world). The fact inflation is being exported just means central banks are accumulating a lot more dollar denominated assets., which leaves us in a very vulnerable position.

Good predictions are made all the time. Peter Schiff has had a pretty good track record as well as a good number of people who have foresaw the tech and housing bubble. I don't think you can even say it was done mostly by luck. A lot of Austrian economists have seen asset bubbles, going back as far as the South Sea bubble as far as I know. Ludwig Von Mises saw the great depression coming. And they all did it by looking at fundamentals.

You also can't compare our oil situation with Europe's. We have grown fat off of oil for a long time and we are just not built to adjust to higher prices. I was pointing out how higher oil is hurting airlines industries at this level. If it continues to stay high, I don't expect some of these airlines to survive.

America compared to Weimar Germany.

edit: typos... wow

Last edited by Phrozenbot (2008-07-17 14:55:54)

God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6764|tropical regions of london
Morgan Stanley took over Indymac just today.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7001|the dank(super) side of Oregon

God Save the Queen wrote:

Morgan Stanley took over Indymac just today.
hadn't heard that.
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7061|Your moms bedroom

Turquoise wrote:

If Wachovia falls, who do you think will buy them?  I ask because I do my banking with them.
better get your monies

http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/17/news/co … tm?cnn=yes

CHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP) -- Securities regulators from several U.S. states on Thursday raided the St. Louis headquarters of Wachovia Securities, seeking documents and records on the company's sales practices.

The move is part of a broad investigation into questionable practices involving auction rate securities, Missouri officials said.

Missouri Secretary of State Robin Carnahan's office said the "special inspection" at the Wachovia division, the former A.G. Edwards, concerned the $330 billion auction-rate securities crisis. Wachovia Securities is part of the Charlotte-based bank, Wachovia Corp. (WB, Fortune 500)

"Hundreds of Missouri investors have called my office because of inability to access their money," Carnahan said in a statement. She added that she aims to take actions to "to make these investors whole."

-article

Last edited by Locoloki (2008-07-17 11:53:05)

motherdear
Member
+25|7072|Denmark/Minnesota (depends)
if people would just stop buying those damn trucks and similar (v8's cough cough, i know that they are nice and all (i totally love them) but they use too much gas and people would save so much money if they just stopped pretending that they live in the 60's) seriously it would give a huge boost to the economy because people would be able to liquidate the money for other companies instead of funding fucking kuwait/saudi arabia. also it would stabilize the fucking world (hopefully) because the demand for oil would lower and we could use some of our leftover funds for research.

of course it might not save us, but at least it will not cripple us to do this since lots of other cars are much more efficient and this wouldn't cause the economy to break our spine when it collapses only like our leg which we can recover over a rather short amount of time.

idk if people get what i'm getting at, but if we stopped using so much gas without the need to we would save tremendous amounts of money without any loses.

so get rid of the truck unless it is absolutely needed and get a decent car that saves you money (and the environment while we are at it)
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7061|Your moms bedroom
I dont watch Glen Beck, but I overheard him ranting that last year Americans spent 300% of our GDP, Meaning, We spent 300% More than we made
d4rkst4r
biggie smalls
+72|6874|Ontario, Canada
I couldn't have agreed with ATG even more. The whole world marketplace and economics of everything is controlled by people who WANT TO DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS. Do what ATG says, get lots of canned food and filter the sodium fluoride out of your bottled water.
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"
Locoloki
I got Mug 222 at Gritty's!!!!
+216|7061|Your moms bedroom

d4rkst4r wrote:

I couldn't have agreed with ATG even more. The whole world marketplace and economics of everything is controlled by people who WANT TO DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS. Do what ATG says, get lots of canned food and filter the sodium fluoride out of your bottled water.
Might as well throw out your toothpaste as well

Merrill Lynch reports $4.9 billion loss

Last edited by Locoloki (2008-07-17 13:50:09)

topal63
. . .
+533|7139
Eh, we will survive - but not because the government is an actual proactive positive force of change, it isn't, but these are: people/peoples changing attitudes, technology, science, and the like, so on and so forth (do I actually have to elaborate? I think not/hope not), these are a subset of the things that make up the real engine of change. The government has become (a long time ago) an anchor dragging in the dirt (and the anchor is getting deeper) behind the engine of change. The government almost always lags far behind social changes, technological innovations, scientific studies/knowledge, etc.

It is simple your future has been sold to someone else and the debt has been placed upon you (and your children). It's a worthless piece of paper (a security, a bond, a dollar bill) - but it still represents your future. It can get better even with all this nonsense and debt (piles upon piles of worthless paper, fiat money, credit here, mortgage there, bla bla bla bond). How can it get better? If and only if we do what money represents: work, produce a work product, fulfill a promise to do work, etc, so that a worthless piece of paper; an utter fiction; can take the form of something real in the real world. Real economic wealth (in a microcosm and macrocosm) is dependent on this relationship of fiction-paper/a promise to produce work to actually doing it (work; or trading a work product: a house, a watch, a car, whatever) and you've involuntary consented to it - whether done knowingly or unknowingly.

Until the government stops bailing out the top; the administrators of debt; middlemen; people who basically don’t do any real work; those who do not create real world wealth; those firmly grasping the anchor... it will continue to get more ridiculous and far worse in personal economic terms. Business and consolidated wealth is necessary; corporations are necessary entities; profit is necessary else business don’t survive and that is not good for anyone, but that doesn’t change the fact that all business enterprises are built upon the backs of men often by tearing their very spine therefrom. Only bubbles and pyramid schemes don’t require men doing real work.

The government owns the right to make money/currency (not banks; not bankers) - and to do so on your behalf/for the people by the people. They produce the fiction (fiat money) and they make it worth something by demanding that you pay taxes with said currency. Taxes make the fiction real. So it doesn't need to be linked to a commodity (gold, silver, fish, bushels of wheat, etc), its’ value (as a check that will never ever be cashed) is made real by the fact that it is the only thing you can pay your taxes with. After demand (it’s good for taxes!), it’s the government’s responsibility to ensure that value is added, and there is only one way to do this… by spending a-fiction upon that which is real; by spending fiat money/dollars upon work. Please don’t bring up a gold or silver standard we simply do not need that archaic relationship (to a commodity that itself can be easily manipulated in a speculative market). Go outside and look around. You see all that real stuff: roads, buildings, your own car - all done/made with a fiat currency. The Federal Reserve’s systemic problems are related to their relationship to credit-money supplies and the inflation and volatile bubble money supply problems associated to credit-as-money; and not because we went off the gold standard (the Fed represents a private banking cartel more so than it represents you as a quasi-governmental agency). Our modern economic world simply does not need a commodity standard to ensure value. Inflation is inevitable, because fiat money is made in advance of the work it represents. Anyways...

We’re becoming a nation of idiotic middlemen that simply do nothing and have no integrity; an idiocracy. A consumeristic produce nothing credit borrowing horde of dunces where everyone has a middleman’s job or service job buying something made overseas at the local Walmart.

So the question is will the government get back to basics, learn how to be proactive like an F.D.R. admin., understand that if you want things to get better; you have to spend money on work; the working man; or worthwhile work projects? You can’t just produce more and more paper; fiction; ad infinitum.

Well, I know what I am betting on (in the near term): more empty promises/bullshit rhetoric, more fiction-money/government secured backed debt, and the working man getting the shaft inserted deeper into his rectum (the man that wears boots and has a hammer in his hand; or a microscope; or…).

Last edited by topal63 (2008-07-17 15:02:27)

topal63
. . .
+533|7139
PS: CPI is more than disputable it's a fraud, since the Clinton years it's a crap index. They began altering the way it was calculated I believe/I think, in the first year of his first term in office.
AutralianChainsaw
Member
+65|6619
Ron Paul vs Bernanke  07/16/2008

AutralianChainsaw
Member
+65|6619

pierro wrote:

Ron Paul is absolutely correct, China’s frenzied buy up of oil has absolutely no effect on the price at all, neither does speculation or relative decreasing levels of refining etc…btw I really do think someone with a university degree in medecine is the most qualified to talk about this[/sarcasm]
Of course all the reasons you mentionned have an effect on the price of oil..  But you have to remember that oil is traded in US dollars and the FED messing around with the value of the dollair do have an effect on the price of oil.

Just look at the chart of the fall of the US dollar and compare it to the chart showing the increase of the price of oil..

And i'm not sure that China have increased their consumption of oil by 300% in the last 3 years. And theres more oil than ever out there..  we are far from peak oil.

Getting rid of the FED will probably not solve all the problem in the world, but you have to agree that bringing the US dollar back to it's original value will have a good effect on the price of oil.

And like him or not, Ron Paul is the only politician out there talking about that issue.  And i would pick the guy with a degree in medecine before choosing a lawyer or a former prisonner of war who don't understand what is going on around him.
usmarine2
Banned
+233|6212|Dublin, Ohio

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

And like him or not, Ron Paul is the only politician out there talking about that issue.  And i would pick the guy with a degree in medecine before choosing a lawyer or a former prisonner of war who don't understand what is going on around him.
and people who hate jews like him.
AutralianChainsaw
Member
+65|6619

pierro wrote:

AustralianChainsaw wrote:

Getting rid of the FED will probably not solve all the problem in the world, but you have to agree that bringing the US dollar back to it's original value will have a good effect on the price of oil.
I would agree bringing the price of oil down is nice, but the way the fed could do this would be through either raising interest rates, or limiting the money supply. There was a test case of this in the 30s when they tried that tactic during a recession (which we’re in) and even the libertarians agree that’s what caused the great depression (look up milton freidman).

It would be fair to do this when the economy is booming (which conventional economics says you should) and everybody criticized Greenspan for being a partisan hack by giving small boosts to the economy with long-term damage. It wasn’t a problem with the system, but with Greenspan wanting to keep Bush up in the polls (something that’s not going to happen with this fed chairman).

AustralianChainsaw wrote:

And like him or not, Ron Paul is the only politician out there talking about that issue.  And i would pick the guy with a degree in medecine before choosing a lawyer or a former prisonner of war who don't understand what is going on around him.
Or you could listen to people with degrees and awards in economics i.e. Ben Bernanke
I do not know how lowering interests rates and bailing out firms like Bear Stearns by raising the money supply is helping the ordinary american.

Its good for wall street but the regular guy is losing his buying power.

Those firms deserve what they are getting today..they made risky bet and deserve to go under.

In my opinion, the market need a correction and the actions of the FED only delay the inevitable. The more they wait, the worst it will be.

usmarine2 wrote:

and people who hate jews like him.
You are really obsessed with the jews..  you need to relax son. They are safe now.
topal63
. . .
+533|7139

pierro wrote:

AustralianChainsaw wrote:

I do not know how lowering interests rates and bailing out firms like Bear Stearns by raising the money supply is helping the ordinary american.
-They do that to avoid the next great depression, if you don’t understand that, then you don’t understand economics
Look a bail-out is no different than the Fed creating money out of thin air. In fact it's almost exactly the same. Where do you think the fictitious-fiat paper comes from? Nowhere. They just create it - and heap the debt upon the next generation.

While I don't agree with just about anything Ron Paul says, at least he's marginally correct about the inflation thing. It's kind of like a tax. The people who get the money first get the full dollar value; then the money supply is inflated and everyone else gets peed-on (trickled down upon, catch my drift? Or do you think I am being obtuse?); everyone else experiences inflation (a devaluation of the dollar based upon an inflated supply; we have to pay more, i.e. like a tax).

The Fed's creation of money (inflation of the money supply) in any form causes consumer product price inflation.
Over the counter bank-credit inflates the money supply (via fractional reserve requirements) and causes inflation as well. In fact it probably causes more inflation than inflating the base money supply (which basically only accounts for about 10% of the money supply; the rest is money supplies in the form of bank-issued-credit).

Bailing out any corporation; private business; will not help the economy. Only a select few benefit. It is one thing to protect the average American and bail him out; meaning secure his savings deposits and guarantee those; but that is not what they are doing. Instead they're propping up failure(s), if some Americans savings deposits are secured then great for them (this is incidental or secondary), and yet that is not what's going on here. The banks; corporate entities; are the ones being propped up here.

The current system is not really like yesterday's (70-100 years ago, it's even quite a bit different than just before the pre-Nixon era; which is about when the de-industrialization of American began). The system of how work gets done, the volume of people in the work force, technology, and so on... is vastly different. A great depression really is not on the horizon nor really even possible. We are headed for leaner times from middle Americans down to the poverty line and below. But, the upper middle-class and up - will not be affected in the same way as those below. I have many wealthy friends and clients that are like vultures circling death, picking and choosing from the freshest meatiest pickings. They are buying; while credit money is being destroyed/removed from the system; because they have liquidity (massive liquidity). They are not buying at deflated prices; they are basically stealing; legalized stealing that is. Real world objects do not get destroyed when fictitious fiat money gets destroyed. Instead those who depend on money from week to week; month to month; find that money is simply not there anymore (often along with their job); and so goes their ability to service debt and/or property taxes. So what really happens then? When the credit-money-bubbles burst - wealth is not really destroyed; instead, in most cases, it changes hands from those who have less to those who have more.

Bailing out corporate entities - only helps those on the corp. board. Nothing more. The government could easily just guarantee the individuals savings in those affected institutions, but they are not. Instead they're helping another den of thieves and vipers; in the stock market.

This is what I was alluding to before, I just don't have the time to be as thorough as I'd like to be. We need to address the work issue; more so than the failing banks or the stock market. Artificially propping up the banking sector/or securities sector... will not address the wealth/value/prosperity/jobs issues - average Americans face (especially young families). Money represents work; or the end product of work. This country needs to address theses basic value/prosperity issues now! I'll say it again - we need to spend created money on work; not on propping up paper. Propping up paper is stupid, because in the end it cannot be done without serious economic consequences. All pyramid schemes fail; all bubbles get burst eventually.

a.) We need to have work projects on infrastructure. That could be just about anything: alternative energy, bridges, high speed trains, science and education, etc.
b.) We need to reduce the trade deficit; and have needed to do this for a very long time. Globalization is a bullshit word, it does not mean competitive in a global economy; it means the exporting of jobs and individual American wealth (now and future wealth). Export work and you export the value that our fiat currency represents. And we export it at the expense of workers rights overseas and the environment overseas (as their standards are often lax or non-existent).
c.) This country simply does not have a 50-100 year plan, a long term outlook/plan. Everything is almost always near-term problem concern.

I wish I could hear some sense coming out of Washington, but I don't hear any. It will be sort of like the Reagan era. The economy was suffering as Carter left office. But it wasn't Washington that brought about the boon or helped the Soviet Union transition out of communism. It was the advent the PC (a non-existent thing, more or less, pre-1980) that brought about the next wave of wealth creation. And, it was Regan that slowed down the social changes going on in Russia, by heating up the cold-war and making the hard-liners in Moscow more resistant to change, it simply would have happened sooner.

If things get better it will be in spite of anything Washington does or takes credit for.

Last edited by topal63 (2008-07-20 13:16:09)

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