BF2S Forums East Jerusalem and Settlements delay peace talks

FEOS wrote:

*cough*dual-use infrastructure is a legal target, shopping malls aren't*cough*

*cough*You need to read more about that war*cough*

Dilbert_X wrote:

*cough*dual-use infrastructure is a legal target, shopping malls aren't*cough*

Ah you mean like this?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080708/ap_ … lestinians
'NABLUS, West Bank - Israeli troops stormed the shopping mall in this West Bank city Tuesday and ordered it to close, saying the popular facility is linked to the militant Islamic Hamas.
The order, signed by an Israeli general who oversees the West Bank, said the building will be closed on Aug. 15, giving shop owners more than a month to move their businesses.
"Anyone found in this center after Aug. 15, will be considered as working on behalf of Hamas and puts himself and his properties in danger," the order said.'

I don't see anything wrong there, when living in a country which has a large militant contigant you should expect to find people looking for them. Also here's the difference you seem to have missed, the Israeli's went in and made sure everybody knew what was going to happen rather than Hezbollah's version which is to fire rockets at things without warning or just blow themselves up in a populated area.

when was it ever their own country again?

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-07-30 07:43:41)

M.O.A.B wrote:

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

FEOS wrote:

You've gone to an extreme here. If conceding living elsewhere on the street or driving a different car would mean my family gets its home back, then yes, I'd be prepared to concede something. It's a matter of whether you're going to fight for the sake of fighting with no chance of getting what you want by doing that, or taking a more strategic approach and concede what's not as important in order to get what is important.

Tell me why Hamas should stop fighting when we all see what happen in the relatively peaceful West Bank?

They keep building settlements there..  We all know what will happen if the palestinians stop the fight..  They will live like slaves in their own country, surrounded by settlements full of extremist zionists armed to the teeth.

Because the current situation of fighting makes everything all hunky dory to begin with...

Ok so they have two choices:

1- They stop the fighting and let the israelis build settlements on their land, destroy their homes and plantations, build checkpoints and they let the israelis treat them like subhuman savages.  They basically surrender and accept to live under occupation.

2- They keep fighting, making their lives even more miserable but at least by fighting, they show the israelis and the world that they will never surrender their freedom...Hey if the fighting stopped, we would all think that everything is ok over there..

Thinking that if the pals stop the fighting and accept to live in peace with the israelis, they will in return accept them as full citizens of Israel with the same rights is just being naive.

M.O.A.B wrote:

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Because the current situation of fighting makes everything all hunky dory to begin with...

Ok so they have two choices:

1- They stop the fighting and let the israelis build settlements on their land, destroy their homes and plantations, build checkpoints and they let the israelis treat them like subhuman savages.  They basically surrender and accept to live under occupation.

2- They keep fighting, making their lives even more miserable but at least by fighting, they show the israelis and the world that they will never surrender their freedom...Hey if the fighting stopped, we would all think that everything is ok over there..

Thinking that if the pals stop the fighting and accept to live in peace with the israelis, they will in return accept them as full citizens of Israel with the same rights is just being naive.

If they actually made an effort to get rid of their terrorist government the Pals would be much better off to being with. The Israeli's see that they have made the effort then they would assist and so would the Western world. Palestine would benefit far more being taken care of by Israel than any nutjob terrorist group. Except they can't grasp that Israel is not going to leave that area no matter how many rockets they hurl toward its towns. Basically they're fighting a constantly losing battle, and until they can realise what they're trying to do is pointless, their situation isn't going to improve.

I understand your point, but do you agree with me that even if almost no terror comes from the West Bank under the control of the "moderate" Fatah, Israel reward them by building more settlements on their land? They are not even able to freeze the settlements construction in the relative peaceful West Bank just to show the world what peace can bring.

Theres no construction of settlements in the Gaza Strip.. and that is because no settler would be safe there. That is one positive thing the fighting brought to the people of Gaza.

My point is, if they stop the fighting, Israel will see it as a sign of weakness and will start to colonize the land with their settlers like they do in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

Theres no construction of settlements in the Gaza Strip.. and that is because no settler would be safe there. That is one positive thing the fighting brought to the people of Gaza.

My point is, if they stop the fighting, Israel will see it as a sign of weakness and will start to colonize the land with their settlers like they do in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Good point.  I do think however that neither side will believe the promises...there's too much history of breaking agreements from both sides of the table.

sergeriver wrote:

*cough*You need to read more about that war*cough*

Not really. The intel reports and third-party, objective military assessments were plenty for me.

It's really quite humorous/sad when you read what actually happened--in its full context--and then read what the media says happened. Many times, they aren't anywhere close to each other.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Ah you mean like this?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080708/ap_ … lestinians
'NABLUS, West Bank - Israeli troops stormed the shopping mall in this West Bank city Tuesday and ordered it to close, saying the popular facility is linked to the militant Islamic Hamas.
The order, signed by an Israeli general who oversees the West Bank, said the building will be closed on Aug. 15, giving shop owners more than a month to move their businesses.
"Anyone found in this center after Aug. 15, will be considered as working on behalf of Hamas and puts himself and his properties in danger," the order said.'

No, not like that, since that shopping mall wasn't TARGETED for a STRIKE by some sort of MUNITION. Quit trying so hard to make reality fit your world view...you'll pull a muscle or something.

Dilbert_X wrote:

No getting your home back is not on the cards, it was never yours - as proven by the bible.
You need to start making concessions for you and your family to be allowed to live on the pavement.
Your car has already been crushed, as will your next one.

Don't let facts stand in the way of your poor analogies.

Israel has agreed to a two-state solution. That--in and of itself--obviates your analogy.

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

Tell me why Hamas should stop fighting when we all see what happen in the relatively peaceful West Bank?

Because fighting has not furthered their cause one bit.

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

They keep building settlements there..  We all know what will happen if the palestinians stop the fight..  They will live like slaves in their own country, surrounded by settlements full of extremist zionists armed to the teeth.

Don't know, since I don't have precognition. Perhaps you should market that or something.

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

And you tell me that if it was happening to you, you would be ready to leave your home in order to get what is important?

Yes, if it would get me what I considered to be more important than what I was conceding. It's called strategy vice tactics. Seeing the forest instead of the trees. Going for the long-term objective instead of a short-term ego boost.

FEOS wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

*cough*You need to read more about that war*cough*

Not really. The intel reports and third-party, objective military assessments were plenty for me.

It's really quite humorous/sad when you read what actually happened--in its full context--and then read what the media says happened. Many times, they aren't anywhere close to each other.

Well, share with us, because it seems that the media was biased against Israel.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Israel has agreed to a two-state solution. That--in and of itself--obviates your analogy.

Provided the Palestinian state is peppered with settlements, criss-crossed with roads the Palestinians aren't allowed to use, dotted with military security checkpoints and on steadily moving borders which bear no relation even to the 1967 green line, with the Israelis controlling the borders, airspace and sea.
Quite an agreement, can you see why the Palestinians aren't falling over themselves to offer concessions?

So long as the Palestinians keep attacking Israeli civilians (settlers or otherwise), people are going to continue looking the other way when it comes to the wrongs being committed by those settlements. Israel is bulldozing homes and putting up new ones. The Palestinians are killing innocent civilians. Israel is displacing innocent people against their will. Palestinians are killing innocent people.

See how that math works? The lesser of two evils is always going to win that battle. The Palestinians (Hamas specifically) need to stop being the worse of two evils. Only then will the wrongness of what Israel is doing WRT the settlements get widespread recognition.

   

Dilbert_X wrote:

Don't know, since I don't have precognition. Perhaps you should market that or something.

If the Palestinians stop fighting they know full well the Israelis will continue the settlement building and border moving.

If they know that full well, they should leverage it. Instead of becoming a martyr by turning yourself into a red mist on a bus full of innocent civilians, martyr yourself Ghandi style: quit fighting and show the world how badly you are being mistreated while you are doing nothing to deserve it. Whether you like it or not, the behavior of the Pal militants gives legitimacy to much of what Israel does...simply because what Israel does WRT the settlements doesn't typically result in deaths of Palestinian civilians. That's not to lessen the plight of those poor people who are being displaced--it's horrible and should stop. But the "horribleness" of that pales in comparison to the "horribleness" of mangled children whose only crime was getting on the wrong bus that day...or stopping to eat at that cafe.

   

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes, if it would get me what I considered to be more important than what I was conceding. It's called strategy vice tactics. Seeing the forest instead of the trees. Going for the long-term objective instead of a short-term ego boost.

What you fail to understand is what is important for the Palestinians is getting their homes and land back.
Its not an ego boost any more than if someone took your children it would be an 'ego-boost' to get them back. Everything else is secondary.

I don't fail to understand that at all. What you seem to fail to understand is that their strategy will not get them what is most important to them. If it was really important, they would pursue a strategy that works instead of one that has proven over decades to not get them what they want. But they continue to pursue a proven failed strategy...why is that?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Every culture has a different psychology. For the Arabs home, land and national identity are critical. Lives much less so.
Which is why they have suicide bombers and we get excited if a soldier has to wait 5 minutes for a medevac.

I fully realize every culture is different and places varying values on human life. But to attain their goals, they have to act contrary to their cultural biases, raise themselves above that and be more pragmatic and less emotional/ego-driven.

AutralianChainsaw wrote:

Israel has agreed to a two-state solution..

Then can you tell me why Israel keeps building settlements on land where the future State of Palestine is supposed to be created? Will those settlers become Palestinian citizens once the state is created?

Put yourself in palestinian shoes for a second.. I know you side with israel 100% but where is the logic to do this while you are negociating peace?

It's not like the land of Israel is overpopulated.. they don't really need these new settlements.. It's called colonisation.

You know nothing. Read the above and then try to say I side with Israel 100%. I don't.

But there are some here who side with the Palestinians 100%, regardless of the situation, and give them a pass for much (if not all) of their wrongs.

authralian tain thaw knows nothing

Dilbert_X wrote:

quit fighting and show the world how badly you are being mistreated while you are doing nothing to deserve it.

The original intifada, which consisted of stone throwing and demonstrations acheived nothing. They learnt their lesson.

And the violence against civilians has achieved anything other than more pain? They learned nothing, apparently.

Dilbert_X wrote:

the behavior of the Pal militants gives legitimacy to much of what Israel does.

It gives zero legitimacy, Israel is an illegal occupying power.

They have more legitimacy responding violently to violence than they do responding violently to non-violent protest.

Dilbert_X wrote:

But there are some here who side with the Palestinians 100%, regardless of the situation, and give them a pass for much (if not all) of their wrongs.

The Palestinians have been savagely wronged, if they commit minor wrongs in response big deal.
Once the major wrong is dealt with the minor wrongs will cease.

Two wrongs don't make a right, regardless of the severity of either.

I'm not saying the Pals don't have a reason to be pissed...they certainly do. What I'm saying is they are using the wrong strategy to get what they want. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is one definition of madness.

Status quo only works in Israel's favor.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Two wrongs don't make a right, regardless of the severity of either.

I thought you said the Palestinians actions give legitimacy to the Israelis actions?
Funny, its always the Palestinians fault in this. When IDF snipers are shooting Palestinian kids you don't give a toss, when its Israeli kids you get excited. Maybe their parents are to blame and they should just take them back to Russia and Germany.

And the violence against civilians has achieved anything other than more pain? They learned nothing, apparently.

Playing nice achieved nothing, moderate demonstration achieved nothing, armed resistance is working about as well.
Having seen Israel fail against Hezbollah maybe thats their best bet.

Status quo only works in Israel's favor.

Hardly, time and demographics are against the Israelis.
They would be sensible to work for a settlement while they and the US hold the balance of power.

I haven't heard of IDF snipers going out with the intention of shooting Palestinian kids tbh.

M.O.A.B wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Two wrongs don't make a right, regardless of the severity of either.

I thought you said the Palestinians actions give legitimacy to the Israelis actions?
Funny, its always the Palestinians fault in this. When IDF snipers are shooting Palestinian kids you don't give a toss, when its Israeli kids you get excited. Maybe their parents are to blame and they should just take them back to Russia and Germany.

And the violence against civilians has achieved anything other than more pain? They learned nothing, apparently.

Playing nice achieved nothing, moderate demonstration achieved nothing, armed resistance is working about as well.
Having seen Israel fail against Hezbollah maybe thats their best bet.

Status quo only works in Israel's favor.

Hardly, time and demographics are against the Israelis.
They would be sensible to work for a settlement while they and the US hold the balance of power.

I haven't heard of IDF snipers going out with the intention of shooting Palestinian kids tbh.

I hope you heard of him.

Mohamed Al-Durah

Last edited by r'Eeee (2008-08-01 06:30:01)