One of the people in the office where I am working is from Indonesia and he asked me this question this morning.
I thought it was a great question.
I thought it was a great question.
Poll
If religion didn't exist, would 9-11 have happened?
| yes | 65% | 65% - 49 | ||||
| no | 34% | 34% - 26 | ||||
| Total: 75 | ||||||
Yes. Because ultimately it's all about rich v poor, landed class v disenfranchised, oppressor v oppressed, culture 1 v culture 2.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-08-07 07:45:54)
If theres no religion differences something else is. Mankind always has a reason to terrorize others. It might not be 9-11 but it would be a different date under different circumstances.
depends
evangelical nutjobs wouldn't have supported Israels crimes, the Jewish lobbies wouldn't have controlled U.S foreign policy thus the reason 9/11 happened.
as mentioned, there are other factors such as war, oppression etc
evangelical nutjobs wouldn't have supported Israels crimes, the Jewish lobbies wouldn't have controlled U.S foreign policy thus the reason 9/11 happened.
as mentioned, there are other factors such as war, oppression etc
Last edited by rammunition (2008-08-07 08:04:22)
Hey, I guess I'm out of touch... you got a job working for somebody?ATG wrote:
One of the people in the office where I am working is from Indonesia and he asked me this question this morning.
I thought it was a great question.
_____
I am not sure that 9-11 would have specifically happened, but terrorism - yes, and the discontent with modernity - yes.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-08-07 07:58:14)
Yes, becuase religion was a mechanism, justification and excuse, not the cause. Every time I agree with Cam, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.ATG wrote:
One of the people in the office where I am working is from Indonesia and he asked me this question this morning.
I thought it was a great question.
I agree with Cam also... what's the world coming to...lol?imortal wrote:
Yes, becuase religion was a mechanism, justification and excuse, not the cause. Every time I agree with Cam, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.ATG wrote:
One of the people in the office where I am working is from Indonesia and he asked me this question this morning.
I thought it was a great question.
Love is the answer
This thread asks the impossible question: "what would history have been without religion."
Let me counter it with my own question: "who would've won World War II if leprechauns took over Nazi Germany and a cabal of wizards directed the Allies?"
Let me counter it with my own question: "who would've won World War II if leprechauns took over Nazi Germany and a cabal of wizards directed the Allies?"
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-08-07 08:10:57)
No. I will be a West coast independent branch. I got backing sort of and empowered by money people.topal63 wrote:
Hey, I guess I'm out of touch... you got a job working for somebody?ATG wrote:
One of the people in the office where I am working is from Indonesia and he asked me this question this morning.
I thought it was a great question.
_____
I am not sure that 9-11 would have specifically happened, but terrorism - yes, and the discontent with modernity - yes.
Well let's see. Why do these AQ guys hate the US. Because of US Bases in Saudi Arabia and because of the US/Israel thing.
Now.
Why do they hate the fact that US bases are in Saudi Arabia? Because Mecca and all that shit is also in Saudi Arabia. So they view it was an outrage and all that.
Now, Israel. Why do they hate Israel, because it's got to do with the Muslim/Jew thing. They wouldn't give a shit about the Palestinians if there was no religion to have that "Brotherhood" connection. So they wouldn't care what Israel is/does and they wouldn't care who supports them.
At the end of the day, 9/11 was carried out by AQ. A religious organisation that only came about because of Islam and all that. All the reasons they hate America are largely religious reasons at the root.
So no, 9/11 wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
Now.
Why do they hate the fact that US bases are in Saudi Arabia? Because Mecca and all that shit is also in Saudi Arabia. So they view it was an outrage and all that.
Now, Israel. Why do they hate Israel, because it's got to do with the Muslim/Jew thing. They wouldn't give a shit about the Palestinians if there was no religion to have that "Brotherhood" connection. So they wouldn't care what Israel is/does and they wouldn't care who supports them.
At the end of the day, 9/11 was carried out by AQ. A religious organisation that only came about because of Islam and all that. All the reasons they hate America are largely religious reasons at the root.
So no, 9/11 wouldn't have happened if religion didn't exist.
If Israel hadn't been a spring board over the past 50 years the USA would have invaded Iraqi or another ME country along time ago to set up a power base.rammunition wrote:
depends
evangelical nutjobs wouldn't have supported Israels crimes, the Jewish lobbies wouldn't have controlled U.S foreign policy thus the reason 9/11 happened.
Maybe not 9-11 specifically, but things of similar nature, certainly, because:
Because they're just products the e-militant atheists trying to be all "nanner-nanner-poo-poo!" and it's stupid.
I'm an athiest, but I'm not stupid, and I know that in the end, this conflict doesn't come down to religion. Maybe it's fueled by it... maybe our violence is contextualized by the zeal brought upon the common people by their religions, but religion didn't cause 9-11, The Holocaust, or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... And while at first glance, that may seem wrong... similar things would have happened without religion and I think I'm right.
Again though, maybe not... maybe a world without religion would be a pristine, fecund world, where the humility of the people ensures that all conflict dissolves before it boils over. We hug it out.
That's actually an extreme annoyance to me... when I see things like:CameronPoe wrote:
Yes. Because ultimately it's all about rich v poor, landed class v disenfranchised, oppressor v oppressed, culture 1 v culture 2.
Because they're just products the e-militant atheists trying to be all "nanner-nanner-poo-poo!" and it's stupid.
I'm an athiest, but I'm not stupid, and I know that in the end, this conflict doesn't come down to religion. Maybe it's fueled by it... maybe our violence is contextualized by the zeal brought upon the common people by their religions, but religion didn't cause 9-11, The Holocaust, or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... And while at first glance, that may seem wrong... similar things would have happened without religion and I think I'm right.
Again though, maybe not... maybe a world without religion would be a pristine, fecund world, where the humility of the people ensures that all conflict dissolves before it boils over. We hug it out.
YEAH!ATG wrote:
No. I will be a West coast independent branch. I got backing sort of and empowered by money people.topal63 wrote:
Hey, I guess I'm out of touch... you got a job working for somebody?ATG wrote:
One of the people in the office where I am working is from Indonesia and he asked me this question this morning.
I thought it was a great question.
_____
I am not sure that 9-11 would have specifically happened, but terrorism - yes, and the discontent with modernity - yes.
On topic, I don't think that 911 would have occured because OBL would have not been able to recruit the same fanatical assholes.
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2008-08-07 09:00:52)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
The influence of religion on what huge numbers of people do in their lives is almost impossible to determine. For some people Religion makes violence acceptable as Gods wrath. Some people restrain from violence because they believe God disaproves of it. You can think up hundreds of situations in the world where religion appears to have made the situation better or worse or both.
Ultimately people do things, not religions. The west has fucked around all over the world doing everything for our own benefit often at their expense, eventually the world was going to bite back. If you look at world reactions to 9/11 they were mainly along the lines of it was a massive tragedy, a terrible crime, welcome to the club. 9/11 was a remarkable event mainly due to who the victims were, not due to the horrors of the crime. The world has seen that kind of horror and worse plenty of times before.
Ultimately people do things, not religions. The west has fucked around all over the world doing everything for our own benefit often at their expense, eventually the world was going to bite back. If you look at world reactions to 9/11 they were mainly along the lines of it was a massive tragedy, a terrible crime, welcome to the club. 9/11 was a remarkable event mainly due to who the victims were, not due to the horrors of the crime. The world has seen that kind of horror and worse plenty of times before.
Give this man a cookie. It's reassuring too see that some people can look deeper than the obvious tool that is employed.CameronPoe wrote:
Yes. Because ultimately it's all about rich v poor, landed class v disenfranchised, oppressor v oppressed, culture 1 v culture 2.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Question.
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-08-07 09:23:23)
Because the leaders of their countries sold them out to the Great Satan of the west.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Question.
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Why is the USA the Great Satan, in their eyes?Kmarion wrote:
Because the leaders of their countries sold them out to the Great Satan of the west.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Question.
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
Because we armed and aided local militias to help them defeat the Soviets in the Cold War, then as soon as we were done with them we dropped them like a dirty dish rag. We pissed off a fairly large group of armed soldiers that we had trained, and they founded Al-Qaeda with a grudge.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Question.
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
No, it has nothing to do with religion. They are waging a war against a diametrically opposed and more successful culture, and if their culture had become what it is without Islam, we would be right where we are. Islam may make their ad campaigns easier, but it is not the root of the problem.
edit: yay wiki links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Civil_war wrote:
Once the Soviets withdrew American interests in Afghanistan also halted. The US decided not to help with reconstruction of the country and instead the US handed over the interests of the country to its allies: Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Pakistan quickly took advantage of their new charitable opportunity and forged relations with warlords and later the Taliban to secure trade interests and routes. From wiping out the countries trees through logging practices, which has destroyed all but 2% of forest cover country-wide, to substantial uprooting of wild pistachio trees for the exportation of their roots for therapeutic uses, to opium agriculture, the past ten years have formed permanent ecological and agrarian destruction that Afghanistan may never recover from.[68]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan#Ideological_impact wrote:
The Islamists who fought also believed that they were responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union. Osama bin Laden, for example, was asserting the credit for "the collapse of the Soviet Union ... goes to God and the mujahideen in Afghanistan ... the US had no mentionable role," but "collapse made the US more haughty and arrogant."[71]
Because a common evil is a great uniter. It's a good excuse to explain away the failings of their own leadership.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Why is the USA the Great Satan, in their eyes?Kmarion wrote:
Because the leaders of their countries sold them out to the Great Satan of the west.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Question.
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Umm no. We continued to dump money in support after we left. http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/p … #beginpageFlaming_Maniac wrote:
Because we armed and aided local militias to help them defeat the Soviets in the Cold War, then as soon as we were done with them we dropped them like a dirty dish rag. We pissed off a fairly large group of armed soldiers that we had trained, and they founded Al-Qaeda with a grudge.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Question.
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
No, it has nothing to do with religion. They are waging a war against a diametrically opposed and more successful culture, and if their culture had become what it is without Islam, we would be right where we are. Islam may make their ad campaigns easier, but it is not the root of the problem.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2001? Are you kidding?Kmarion wrote:
Umm no. We continued to dump money in support after we left. http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/p … #beginpageFlaming_Maniac wrote:
Because we armed and aided local militias to help them defeat the Soviets in the Cold War, then as soon as we were done with them we dropped them like a dirty dish rag. We pissed off a fairly large group of armed soldiers that we had trained, and they founded Al-Qaeda with a grudge.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Question.
Why do Al Queda (the people responsible for 9/11) hate the USA?
No, it has nothing to do with religion. They are waging a war against a diametrically opposed and more successful culture, and if their culture had become what it is without Islam, we would be right where we are. Islam may make their ad campaigns easier, but it is not the root of the problem.
edit: Besides being a decade or so late, 43 million is a far cry from 600 million.
We were given continuously long before that.. did you read it at all?Flaming_Maniac wrote:
2001? Are you kidding?Kmarion wrote:
Umm no. We continued to dump money in support after we left. http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/p … #beginpageFlaming_Maniac wrote:
Because we armed and aided local militias to help them defeat the Soviets in the Cold War, then as soon as we were done with them we dropped them like a dirty dish rag. We pissed off a fairly large group of armed soldiers that we had trained, and they founded Al-Qaeda with a grudge.
No, it has nothing to do with religion. They are waging a war against a diametrically opposed and more successful culture, and if their culture had become what it is without Islam, we would be right where we are. Islam may make their ad campaigns easier, but it is not the root of the problem.
edit: Besides being a decade or so late, 43 million is a far cry from 600 million.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Bin Laden got pissed off when the US came to help Saudi Arabia in the Gulf War. He didn't like it that these guys were on "sacred land". Now, why is it that:
He thinks of the US as foreigners
He thinks that Saudi is Sacred land
He thinks that it's bad that the US are on Sacred land
The reasons? Islam. The USA are considered foreigners because they're mostly not Muslim. He thinks SA is Sacred Land because of Mecca and all that shit.
Of course, he wasn't complaining about foreigners and that shit when they were helping him against the Soviets. But what's a religious fanatic without bucketloads of hypocrisy? Nobody, that's what
He thinks of the US as foreigners
He thinks that Saudi is Sacred land
He thinks that it's bad that the US are on Sacred land
The reasons? Islam. The USA are considered foreigners because they're mostly not Muslim. He thinks SA is Sacred Land because of Mecca and all that shit.
Of course, he wasn't complaining about foreigners and that shit when they were helping him against the Soviets. But what's a religious fanatic without bucketloads of hypocrisy? Nobody, that's what
Did you read it?Kmarion wrote:
We were given continuously long before that.. did you read it at all?Flaming_Maniac wrote:
2001? Are you kidding?Kmarion wrote:
Umm no. We continued to dump money in support after we left. http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/p … #beginpage
edit: Besides being a decade or so late, 43 million is a far cry from 600 million.
That means in 2000 they gave 114 million in humanitarian aid, and then only 10 million in the years before that. Again, a far cry from what we thought they needed when they suited our own interests.ze article wrote:
Last year, we provided about $114 million in aid. With this new package, our humanitarian assistance to date this year will reach $124 million.
Also, it looks like they are giving this money in return for a ban on poppy seeds (heroin). Not because we're such an awesome nation.