oChaos.Haze
Member
+90|6859

Lotta_Drool wrote:

oChaos.Haze wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

They had better gymnasts that night that were not of legal age to compete. So, they cheated for the gold.
Ok I'm done with you.  You just don't seem to get what I'm saying, it's ok.
We will never know who had better gymnists because everyone BUT China FOLLOWED THE RULES and didn't compete will underage gymnasts.

there should be a different forum for hand picked people from this forum so we can have debates with only people who are of a certain level of intellect.
How on earth can you tell me everyone BUT china followed the rules.  You have absolutely no idea what anyone truly did. 

And to top it off, I said China had the better gymnasts THAT NIGHT.  So your superior intellect somehow missed that this debate wasn't about hypotheticals, and would be's.   It's about the fact that the IOC and the IGF let them compete.  Then they won.  And how now, after the fact, everyone is crying.

You would definitely be in the bottom level of your so called forums.

Last edited by oChaos.Haze (2008-08-15 12:54:03)

Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6604|Ireland

oChaos.Haze wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

oChaos.Haze wrote:


Ok I'm done with you.  You just don't seem to get what I'm saying, it's ok.
We will never know who had better gymnists because everyone BUT China FOLLOWED THE RULES and didn't compete will underage gymnasts.

there should be a different forum for hand picked people from this forum so we can have debates with only people who are of a certain level of intellect.
How on earth can you tell me everyone BUT china followed the rules.  You have absolutely no idea what anyone truly did. 

And to top it off, I said China had the better gymnasts THAT NIGHT.  So your superior intellect somehow missed that this debate wasn't about hypotheticals, and would be's.   It's about the fact that the IOC and the IGF let them compete.  Then they won.  And how now, after the fact, everyone is crying.

You would definitely be in the bottom level of your so called forums.
show me who else cheated.  I have only heard of china.
MAGUIRE93
High Angle Hell
+182|6615|Schofield Barracks
isnt there a 15 year old swimmer?
aimless
Member
+166|6545|Texas

MAGUIRE93 wrote:

isnt there a 15 year old swimmer?
There's different age limits for different events.

But I agree with Haze. The chinese government provided the passports saying they were all of age, let it rest then. They still performed amazingly well and beat the US and every other team.
MAGUIRE93
High Angle Hell
+182|6615|Schofield Barracks

aimless wrote:

MAGUIRE93 wrote:

isnt there a 15 year old swimmer?
There's different age limits for different events.

But I agree with Haze. The chinese government provided the passports saying they were all of age, let it rest then. They still performed amazingly well and beat the US and every other team.
oh ok.
The swimmer is from my state.

Last edited by MAGUIRE93 (2008-08-15 13:20:06)

CC-Marley
Member
+407|7249

iamangry wrote:

On another note, does anyone remember the chinese promising no rain during the olympics? 

Was that stuff falling during the first US men's beach volleyball game, or during the woman's cycling earlier this week something else? 

All I have to say is lol to anyone who thinks the chinese regime is anything but dishonest, deceitful, and aggressive towards the West.
Acid rain to boot.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|7067

oChaos.Haze wrote:

usmarine wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

THEY CHANGED THE BOOKS TO MAKE THEM OLD ENOUGH TO COMPETE! THAT IS CHEATING, WHEN RULES ARE SET OUT THEY HAVE TO BE FOLLOWED! IF THEY ARE BENT OR BROKEN TO HELP YOU THAT IS CHEATING!!!!
simple as that.  i have no idea what people are arguing about.  even if you cheat and its to your disadvantage as some claim, it is STILL CHEATING!!!!!!!!  look that word up some of you.  my god.  case closed.
I have never said it wasn't cheating, I merely said if someone cheats to their disadvantage, and you lose to them, you have nothing to cry about.

And yes the case is closed.  China had the better gymnasts that night.
I think it's already been pointed out several times that in gymnastics a smaller frame is an advantage so they weren't cheating to a disadvantage.

Men are also built differently then women, so thats why men can compete in several olympics, while women usually only get one.

It's seeming pretty obvious China ignored the rules to send their best gymnists as opposed to their best age appropriate ones. I think they should get rid of the age limit, but the point is that it there now, and should be followed by all.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7021|132 and Bush

oChaos.Haze wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

oChaos.Haze wrote:

Well population to country as a whole maybe, but if you talking about population of people who are under 15, then you are talking about a minority, not a huge section of the population.
I'm talking proportional to available competitors. Excluding an entire age group would greatly reduce your chances for gold. There are thousands of willing 14 year olds sitting on the couch wishing they had a chance.
And also, by that rhetoric, China would get 1st, India 2nd, US 3rd, Indonesia 4th, Brazil 5th.
Countries that actually take an interest in participating in a variety of sports.

Kmarion come on here.  I have eyes and can see they were young.  I am not confused about their age. I used the line about the gymnastics federation to show where the blame really lies.  They cleared these girls to compete.  If it is so obvious and easy to prove they are that young, and we want to follow the rules, then THEY are to blame.
I don't think anyone is surprised that the Chinese did it. In fact I don't think anyone is surprised that the IOC would would turn a blind eye to the host country. It's happened before without the IOC doing anything.
This is why I like you Kmarion, you always answer sincerely and with well thought out rebuttals.  I just don't think any other country actually sat a better gymnast out, to comply with the age.  I think if any other country had those girls, they would have done the same thing. 

Now if there's a little girl who can actually hang with the Chinese girls, that sat at home, then of course I can see where there's an advantage, and would willingly concede that.  I just refuse to believe that any country would not bring their best athletes possible.
With all due respect, I disagree with the presumption. In an open society it's a little easier to catch deceit. We document everything with our kids.  We simply do not know what could have been.

The Chinese hate to be embarrassed, and this was embarrassing. They were so scared that things wouldn't go according to plan that they "faked" parts of the opening ceremony. I'd say that they are enduring the punishment with every story they try to retract from the AP.

It could be worse though.


Also consider that the IOC also has more pie on it's face. Maybe this will help them reevaluate the rules and verification process.

For the record, even though they were underage, I do not think those girls should be stripped of their medals. They worked extremely hard for them and it is not their fault (adults should be the moral authority).
Xbone Stormsurgezz
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6600
As I have said before, the controversy started well before the women's final. I followed this closely and the questions were happening and simmering before and during the whole event. Every night during the gymnastic events, they would ask Bella about this and what was being said and what we being done.  So to say that all this stuff came ONLY after the medals were handed out is just plain naive. It may have not gotten big press until people started finding the correct ages given out before the olympics and the press took off with it. Again, no one is protesting the results...NO ONE....NO ONE is asking for the Chinese girls to give up anything. They are asking the IOC to do a better job, either enforce the rules or open it up. But if their are rules...every country should follow them..period!!

As far as the IOC, they RECHECKED the passports after hearing the complaints. I know damn well that they check ages with the passports but it was redone to try to make sure and that wouldn't have happened unless there were enough complaints and not just from one group. Being younger in gymnastics can be an advantage, maybe not mentally, but physically it can be, especially if you are an elite athlete training since you were 3 years old. In China, these girls are taken to training away from their families at age 3 and are in the system until deemed unusable. They only get to see their families once a year and if you think about it, these girls have seen their families a hand full of times to their current age. So with their young age, with their extreme training, you damn well better believe it is an advantage.

Regardless, nothing has changed and from the articles I have read today, the IOC is looking to make changes later because of this. Who knows what that will be, the age change to 16 was not all that long ago and now I bet we see the age range either thrown out or revised lower. Bottom line, China purposely skirted the age rule, China won the team gold and honestly should and will keep their medals because it is not right to punish these girls after it is done and over with....remember no one is asking for any punishment....just that the IOC do their job and do it right. It cant be a pick and choose on who to punish or ban. If you are going to ban for other infractions or even punish a guy because he doesn't like his bronze medal, then they should do a better job of enforcing their own rules. If they had done their job in the first place, there wouldn't be any of this BS. We will see what happens four years from now.
Spazz
Member
+7|6987

article wrote:

"One of them clearly he missed," Mark was quoted as saying. “I don't think anyone out there thought he hit it. If that had been for a gold medal, I would have been protesting.”.
they are jus pizzy cause they lost

Last edited by Spazz (2008-08-15 15:09:14)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7182

Spazz wrote:

article wrote:

"One of them clearly he missed," Mark was quoted as saying. “I don't think anyone out there thought he hit it. If that had been for a gold medal, I would have been protesting.”.
they are jus pizzy cause they lost
so what?  they are right.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6907|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

usmarine wrote:

Spazz wrote:

article wrote:

"One of them clearly he missed," Mark was quoted as saying. “I don't think anyone out there thought he hit it. If that had been for a gold medal, I would have been protesting.”.
they are jus pizzy cause they lost
so what?  they are right.
Yup. Fuck playing fair.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina

maffiaw wrote:

Turquoise is a bit of a armchair expert isn't he? Slanging negative connotative words like 'oppressed' around like balls of mud.
You should've taken your own advice earlier in this thread and stopped responding.

maffiaw wrote:

One thing I will grant you though: Uyghers are indeed poorer than the average Chinese citizen, but things have improved greatly for them, just like it has for the rest of the country.
Ah yes, there's no defense quite like, "We don't treat them quite as shitty as before."

maffiaw wrote:

As for the rest, you will now it is all rubbish if you've actually been there. Normal people are free do criticise the government whenever they want, in fact the government think tanks are constantly attacking various policies in order to reform. (read Mark Leonard's "What Does China Think?") The only things you maybe cant encourage others to do are : Eliminate the govt   (i.e coup d'etat), or Taiwan, Tibet etc should be independent - but these types of things are frowned upon in many other countries, and not like it would get much support anyway. My main point is China is not the old-school Communisto society you think it is, and the media likes to perpetuate it as. If you understood Chinese and went on the internets you would see that even at the grass roots level debate goes on about the government. In fact there was a video on youtube of a History lecturer in Beijing blaming the govt for Cultural Revolution and making fun of Mao etc. He was hailed as the "best teacher ever" on the internet soon after.
The Falun Gong would disagree with you.  The ones most intimately familiar with the Chinese government's ethics are dead, so they can't quite defend themselves in this discussion, but here's what we know of Beijing's interactions with them...

"In April 1999 over ten thousand Falun Gong practitioners, at Chinese Communist Party headquarters, Zhongnanhai, silently protested beatings and arrests in Tianjin. Two months later the Chinese government, led by Jiang Zemin, banned the practice, began a crackdown, and started a 'massive propaganda campaign.' Since 1999, reports of torture, illegal imprisonment, beatings, forced labor, and psychiatric abuses have been widespread. 66% of all reported torture cases in China concern Falun Gong practitioners, who are also estimated to comprise at least half of China's labor camp population, according to the UN Special Rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, and the US Department of State respectively. In 2006, human rights lawyer David Matas and ex-Canadian secretary of state David Kilgour published an investigative report concluding that a large number of Falun Gong practitioners have become victims of systematic organ harvesting in China and that the practice is still ongoing."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

Primary sources are cited in the article itself if you don't like wiki.

maffiaw wrote:

Now you see the massive discrepancies on the two sides, and perhaps why so many overseas Chinese people came out to defend themselves during the torch relay. And no, for anyone who is still living a convenient pipe dream, they are not brainwashed.
Maybe they aren't, but you certainly sound like it.

maffiaw wrote:

As for the gymnastics: Age related "cheating" is entirely possible (passports etc are all issued by govt)
Except: 1. sounds an awful lot like sour grapes - bad losers! lol
2. Chinese girls usually look a lot younger. E.g. the eldest in the team, Cheng Fei, is actually around 20( as she competed in the last olympics),
but she looks like 15-16.

My 2c.
Wow, and you were blasting me for not being objective.
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6604|Ireland
Fucking having the Olympics in a Communist country is fucking stupid in the first place.  It is only fitting that China be allowed to cheat like the socially retarded ego impaired shits they are.

This year it is the Special olympics IMO.
maffiaw
ph33r me 傻逼
+40|6841|Melbourne, AUS
Is that the best you can do Turquoise? Throw the infamous Falun Gong card at me, and them imply I am brainwashed? Like many other people, I simply see a less skewed view of the country. You could say I see closer to the truth, than someone who has never talked in irl to the local people and have lived with them. It is not good to name everyone brainwashed. Too convenient and silly, as everyone in indoctrinated in some way, or we wouldn't be able to function in society, and armies wouldn't follow orders.

The FalunGong are a can of worms, I admit, and it is a pity they (perhaps under outside influence) decided to use a pseudo-Buddhist mantra to hide a strong political agenda. Many people joined because the spiritual vacuum left by the CCP after the Cultural Revolution was large. Was the crackdown the wrong thing to do? In a nutshell:
In one way yes. It probably will be a major stain on the govt's reputation for a long way to come; a convenient card to play in order to criticise ( & I think justly so) the actions of the CCP. It would have been "morally" right for the CCP to not touch them, but perhaps rein them in somehow.
In one way no. The 1990s saw the first fruits of Deng's economic reform being implemented, but many in the inland areas were still shit poor. Social stability was key for economic reforms, and maybe letting the FG do what they did may have been a risk to that.

I guess a cliche like "for the greater good" would fit in here, but that would sound corny. One good example is this: The Tiananmen Incident - caused by disgruntled intellectuals arguing for freedom, as well as workers arguing for a return to the old Socialist system ironically. Would the same incident happen today? No. Why? Social stability- no one would want to. And before you shout "oh its the govt using more hardcore controlling techniques", forcible controlling that many ppl is a bit of a challenge, demonstrated clearly by the Cultural Revolution ( unless if they had brainwave technology or sumtin). For proof, 58000 protests went on in China in 2005 of which a substantial number were over 10k ppl. 30 years ago, no one would have dared. Now, the local govt, while still corrupt, realise they are becoming more accountable for their shit because any wrongdoing and the internet would explode with video footage etc, and they would be stuffed. (http://www.rand.org/pubs/testimonies/20 … _CT240.pdf)

I would love to see the Govt. lift all internet restrictions and introduce proper property rights, and the country still has a long way to go, but it is NOT what you believe it is. After all the right to be out of poverty and live in security are basic Human Right, and in that regard the govt have done a better job than anyone else. ( I reckon  you Turquoise would be pushed hard to even find 1 good thing the govt has done in the past 20-30 years. Don't you think there is something wrong with your POV?)

I know you are going to sling the "dissident" card at me next, so I'll preclude you. Last time I went back, my grandpops, a longtime CCP member came back from a briefing for retired CCP members. We started debating the Justice system in the restaurant. Before long everyone, including him was saying "all the prosecutors are bastards!" or " there is no good execution of law in this country!" blablabla. Who the fuck cared? No one. (When my mum was in uni 20yrs ago, people got into shit for kissing each other outside marriage and therefore being "Rightist"!)

So the question that remains to be answered is "Who are dissidents?". Intellectuals who openly disagree with the govt? No, there are plently of those around. Many uni professors are not CCP members and their "White Papers" are accepted into the govt think tank CASS. Sometimes they are even given a chance to explain their reason for reform (whether democratic, social or economical) in front of the Politburo. Are they bloggers who criticise the govt? Not really. Blogging is prolific in China, and some especially scathing blogs are closed down - which i think is wrong ( but they are recached soon after ). But contrary to popular Western ideals, these people are not shot or whatever. There are simply too many of them for the e-police to deal with frankly.
Are the "dissidents" a convenient label for anyone who has some other ulterior motive? Don't Know. The overly publicised case of Hu Jia drew bemusement from local netizens, as he clamored for better HIV treatment, the Govt. pushed ahead a widely unpopular policy of re-allowing HIV positive people to re-enter the country.

As I said, you need to look beyond the horizon when forming a view on a country, especially one as complex as China. Reinforcing a comfortable opinion is easy - there are many anti-China sites out there -  but forming your own comprehensive picture is much, much more harder to achieve. Strive for it. I am happy to continue this debate, but as this is a thread about gymnastics, PM me or something.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6958|Long Island, New York
holy wall of text, batman!
maffiaw
ph33r me 傻逼
+40|6841|Melbourne, AUS
Read it. It is interesting.
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6604|Ireland

maffiaw wrote:

Read it. It is interesting.
I reported your post for spamming.  Please refrain from posts longer than this >                                                         .                                                                                                           .                                                                                                      .                                                                                                             .                         










<.
in this thread.  OK?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina
Maffiaw, I suppose the difference in our viewpoints is that I see organ harvesting as more than just wrong.  It's fucking diabolical.
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|7093|Colorado
Maybe she won fair & square but broke some set rules, which should disqualify. Rules are rules.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7095|Canberra, AUS
Turq, containment simply won't work. China is well past the stage where it would have worked, and any attempt to 'contain' them will hurt us far, far, far more than it would ever hurt them.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Icleos
Member
+101|7163

Turquoise wrote:

Spark wrote:

Turq, containment simply won't work. China is well past the stage where it would have worked, and any attempt to 'contain' them will hurt us far, far, far more than it would ever hurt them.
I'm not suggesting we contain them.  I'm suggesting we do everything possible to get them to change their human rights policies (or lack thereof).  This includes shunning them from things like the Olympics until they work towards this change.
Do that and you'll drive a wedge between international powers.
I and most people would rather have them play with different political standards than strengthen it by shunning them.

As for the age issue.  Most sports dealing with rosters and eligibility to play are suppose to be filtered prior to that sport/event.
There's no solid evidence that the athlete is underage.  An inconsistency with websites records is dismissible in court.
Unless they, the Olympic Committee, has solid proof that her passport and DOB certificate are a forgery then there's no grounds for a conviction.

Last edited by Icleos (2008-08-16 10:48:57)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina

Icleos wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Spark wrote:

Turq, containment simply won't work. China is well past the stage where it would have worked, and any attempt to 'contain' them will hurt us far, far, far more than it would ever hurt them.
I'm not suggesting we contain them.  I'm suggesting we do everything possible to get them to change their human rights policies (or lack thereof).  This includes shunning them from things like the Olympics until they work towards this change.
Do that and you'll drive a wedge between international powers.
I and most people would rather have them play with different political standards than strengthen it by shunning them.
It'll drive a wedge, but in the long run, it will force them to reconsider their ways.  They obviously care more about the Olympics than we do, or at least more than America does for that matter.
Icleos
Member
+101|7163
How do you measure that?  How much they care?  Only by their illicit actions?
Obviously the host is going to care the most if they're hosting the Olympics.

Last edited by Icleos (2008-08-16 11:07:12)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina

Icleos wrote:

How do you measure that?  How much they care?  By their illicit actions?
Obviously the host is going to care the most if they're hosting the Olympics.
True, but when you consider the enthusiasm they've shown in past Olympics compared to the relatively low ratings our Olympics coverage gets when it's even held here, I'd say China cares more.

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