If you want to walk a mile you have to start by taking a step.rammunition wrote:
Israel Kidnaps many Palestinians every day as political prisoners, they may have released 200 but that doesn't mean they have stopped kidnapping Palestinians and locking them up without charge.
Hats off???
not from me, there are more bigger issues than prisoner releases that haven't been addressed i.e. Palestinian borders, Jerusalem etc
FixedGod Save the Queen wrote:
US prisons are better than Israeli prisons.
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
Precisely.Braddock wrote:
You are saying that Iran controls things in Palestine/Israel as far as the militant end of the Palestinian struggle goes?san4 wrote:
The Palestinians have minimal influence at this point. Iran controls the violence.Braddock wrote:
We're talking about Palestine and Israel, not Iran or Iranian interference.
Care to back your claim up with anything?san4 wrote:
Precisely.Braddock wrote:
You are saying that Iran controls things in Palestine/Israel as far as the militant end of the Palestinian struggle goes?san4 wrote:
The Palestinians have minimal influence at this point. Iran controls the violence.
Israel probably installed microscopic Intel tracking chips on these guys. The moment they get back with their buddies to kill more Israelis, the space lasers'll have 'em.
RPG-29Braddock wrote:
Care to back your claim up with anything?san4 wrote:
Precisely.Braddock wrote:
You are saying that Iran controls things in Palestine/Israel as far as the militant end of the Palestinian struggle goes?
Care to flesh out the argument a little more as to how Iran controls matters in terms of Palestinian militancy?M.O.A.B wrote:
RPG-29Braddock wrote:
Care to back your claim up with anything?san4 wrote:
Precisely.
Probably by giving them training, advanced weapons, tactics on which to operate. In that way they are controlling their ability to be militants, if Iran cut out all aid, they wouldn't be able to do half the stuff they could now.Braddock wrote:
Care to flesh out the argument a little more as to how Iran controls matters in terms of Palestinian militancy?M.O.A.B wrote:
RPG-29Braddock wrote:
Care to back your claim up with anything?
Sorry but Iran "control" the Palestinian side about as much as the US "controls" the Israeli side. The IRA trained ETA and provided them with the means to create many of their bombs, does that mean the Irish were in control of the Basque separatist movement? I like the way when the US give military aid and assistance to Israel it is fine and dandy but if the Palestinians get any aid or assistance from anyone it's a monstrosity.M.O.A.B wrote:
Probably by giving them training, advanced weapons, tactics on which to operate. In that way they are controlling their ability to be militants, if Iran cut out all aid, they wouldn't be able to do half the stuff they could now.Braddock wrote:
Care to flesh out the argument a little more as to how Iran controls matters in terms of Palestinian militancy?M.O.A.B wrote:
RPG-29
There's also a vast difference in what that equipment is supplied to be used for. One is being used to effectively aid in the extermination of a group of people just cos they took over a piece of land as well as intentionally targeting civilians. The other is used primarily for defence of the country that has more enemies around it than anyone else and for retailating against the muppets who think its a good idea to fire a home made rocket into a populated area.Braddock wrote:
Sorry but Iran "control" the Palestinian side about as much as the US "controls" the Israeli side. The IRA trained ETA and provided them with the means to create many of their bombs, does that mean the Irish were in control of the Basque separatist movement? I like the way when the US give military aid and assistance to Israel it is fine and dandy but if the Palestinians get any aid or assistance from anyone it's a monstrosity.M.O.A.B wrote:
Probably by giving them training, advanced weapons, tactics on which to operate. In that way they are controlling their ability to be militants, if Iran cut out all aid, they wouldn't be able to do half the stuff they could now.Braddock wrote:
Care to flesh out the argument a little more as to how Iran controls matters in terms of Palestinian militancy?
You're just picking sides. Israel's equipment is being used to oppress the indigenous Palestinian population and keep them in a ghettoized environment, they also have no qualms about firing into civilian areas when there is a 'target' in the vicinity.M.O.A.B wrote:
There's also a vast difference in what that equipment is supplied to be used for. One is being used to effectively aid in the extermination of a group of people just cos they took over a piece of land as well as intentionally targeting civilians. The other is used primarily for defence of the country that has more enemies around it than anyone else and for retailating against the muppets who think its a good idea to fire a home made rocket into a populated area.Braddock wrote:
Sorry but Iran "control" the Palestinian side about as much as the US "controls" the Israeli side. The IRA trained ETA and provided them with the means to create many of their bombs, does that mean the Irish were in control of the Basque separatist movement? I like the way when the US give military aid and assistance to Israel it is fine and dandy but if the Palestinians get any aid or assistance from anyone it's a monstrosity.M.O.A.B wrote:
Probably by giving them training, advanced weapons, tactics on which to operate. In that way they are controlling their ability to be militants, if Iran cut out all aid, they wouldn't be able to do half the stuff they could now.
Neither does any other military force on earth that isn't going to sit and be attacked and do nothing about it. And yeah if we're gonna take sides in military terms, I pick Israel.Braddock wrote:
You're just picking sides. Israel's equipment is being used to oppress the indigenous Palestinian population and keep them in a ghettoized environment, they also have no qualms about firing into civilian areas when there is a 'target' in the vicinity.M.O.A.B wrote:
There's also a vast difference in what that equipment is supplied to be used for. One is being used to effectively aid in the extermination of a group of people just cos they took over a piece of land as well as intentionally targeting civilians. The other is used primarily for defence of the country that has more enemies around it than anyone else and for retailating against the muppets who think its a good idea to fire a home made rocket into a populated area.Braddock wrote:
Sorry but Iran "control" the Palestinian side about as much as the US "controls" the Israeli side. The IRA trained ETA and provided them with the means to create many of their bombs, does that mean the Irish were in control of the Basque separatist movement? I like the way when the US give military aid and assistance to Israel it is fine and dandy but if the Palestinians get any aid or assistance from anyone it's a monstrosity.
So you just admit you take Israel's side in the argument? Is there any point continuing this particular aspect of the debate in that case? No.M.O.A.B wrote:
Neither does any other military force on earth that isn't going to sit and be attacked and do nothing about it. And yeah if we're gonna take sides in military terms, I pick Israel.Braddock wrote:
You're just picking sides. Israel's equipment is being used to oppress the indigenous Palestinian population and keep them in a ghettoized environment, they also have no qualms about firing into civilian areas when there is a 'target' in the vicinity.M.O.A.B wrote:
There's also a vast difference in what that equipment is supplied to be used for. One is being used to effectively aid in the extermination of a group of people just cos they took over a piece of land as well as intentionally targeting civilians. The other is used primarily for defence of the country that has more enemies around it than anyone else and for retailating against the muppets who think its a good idea to fire a home made rocket into a populated area.
I personally think it's ludicrous to believe Iran oversee, co-ordinate and plan the military wing of the Palestinian movement, you obviously do not so we'll leave it at that as it's pure conjecture. Back to the topic in hand, i am glad Israel are showing themselves to be big enough to make some of the painful concessions necessary to move towards a meaningful peace, I hope they can maintain this strong attitude.
You do know that Palestinians constantly attack the Israelis, right?rammunition wrote:
Israel Kidnaps many Palestinians every day as political prisoners, they may have released 200 but that doesn't mean they have stopped kidnapping Palestinians and locking them up without charge.
Hats off???
not from me, there are more bigger issues than prisoner releases that haven't been addressed i.e. Palestinian borders, Jerusalem etc
Well it's a pretty complicated situation. Israel declared itself a nation in the middle of a region already inhabited by Palestinians and proceeded to treat these Palestinians like second class citizens ever since. I can understand why they would want to attack and stand up to the Israeli regime, I only wish they had the decency to confine their attacks to military and security targets and not include innocent civilians.thtthht wrote:
You do know that Palestinians constantly attack the Israelis, right?rammunition wrote:
Israel Kidnaps many Palestinians every day as political prisoners, they may have released 200 but that doesn't mean they have stopped kidnapping Palestinians and locking them up without charge.
Hats off???
not from me, there are more bigger issues than prisoner releases that haven't been addressed i.e. Palestinian borders, Jerusalem etc
I said military terms, I choose Israel, reason being because they do not INTENTIONALLY attack civilian targets. Any instances in which civilians are killed by Israeli forces are investigated thoroughly, something that doesn't occur on the Palestinian side but rather includes large rallies for their 'heroes'.Braddock wrote:
So you just admit you take Israel's side in the argument? Is there any point continuing this particular aspect of the debate in that case? No.M.O.A.B wrote:
Neither does any other military force on earth that isn't going to sit and be attacked and do nothing about it. And yeah if we're gonna take sides in military terms, I pick Israel.Braddock wrote:
You're just picking sides. Israel's equipment is being used to oppress the indigenous Palestinian population and keep them in a ghettoized environment, they also have no qualms about firing into civilian areas when there is a 'target' in the vicinity.
I personally think it's ludicrous to believe Iran oversee, co-ordinate and plan the military wing of the Palestinian movement, you obviously do not so we'll leave it at that as it's pure conjecture. Back to the topic in hand, i am glad Israel are showing themselves to be big enough to make some of the painful concessions necessary to move towards a meaningful peace, I hope they can maintain this strong attitude.
I take israels side because anyone who wants to blow himself up while he kills non combantants is a coward cocksucker.
Well the Israelis say they don't mean to hit civilians but thy sure manage to hit a lot, I for one am not sold on how committed they supposedly are to keeping collateral damage to a minimum. That's not even counting the number of deaths they cause at checkpoints by denying immediate access to hospitals (including newborn babies). It's very easy to pick faults in the actions of Palestinian militants because they haven't exactly shown much moral fibre in their tactics of late but it by no means makes the Israelis angels in the conflict.M.O.A.B wrote:
I said military terms, I choose Israel, reason being because they do not INTENTIONALLY attack civilian targets. Any instances in which civilians are killed by Israeli forces are investigated thoroughly, something that doesn't occur on the Palestinian side but rather includes large rallies for their 'heroes'.
I take Palestine's side in terms of the overall principle of the conflict i.e. I believe the nation of Israel shafted the indigenous Palestinians who have been hard done by ever since the State's inception. However, I don't condone the targeting of civilians so I can't support this aspect of the Palestinian struggle.God Save the Queen wrote:
I take israels side because anyone who wants to blow himself up while he kills non combantants is a coward cocksucker.
I can't support ether one, the Palestinians are being used as pawns by the rest of the Arab world, and Israel just wants to fuck shit up.
Look at the peace deals, the Arab world could have forced the rest of the world to make Israel concede, but they like the Israel that is in constant fear of attack.
Look at the peace deals, the Arab world could have forced the rest of the world to make Israel concede, but they like the Israel that is in constant fear of attack.
I focus that blame on the ottoman empire and their shitty administration of the region. If they were better rulers, you wouldnt see such problems with cultural identity, which is the root of the entire thing.
That is true to a certain degree. Way back in the early days the other Arab nations were quite content to sell the Palestinians up the river. Israel also provide a very handy enemy-figure for the likes of Iran.SgtHeihn wrote:
I can't support ether one, the Palestinians are being used as pawns by the rest of the Arab world, and Israel just wants to fuck shit up.
Look at the peace deals, the Arab world could have forced the rest of the world to make Israel concede, but they like the Israel that is in constant fear of attack.
Last edited by Braddock (2008-08-28 14:03:56)
the root of the entire problem is Zionism!!!God Save the Queen wrote:
I focus that blame on the ottoman empire and their shitty administration of the region. If they were better rulers, you wouldnt see such problems with cultural identity, which is the root of the entire thing.
The key difference is that the US admits to giving Israel assistance.Braddock wrote:
Sorry but Iran "control" the Palestinian side about as much as the US "controls" the Israeli side. The IRA trained ETA and provided them with the means to create many of their bombs, does that mean the Irish were in control of the Basque separatist movement? I like the way when the US give military aid and assistance to Israel it is fine and dandy but if the Palestinians get any aid or assistance from anyone it's a monstrosity.
And nobody said it was a monstrosity. Only that it is a fact.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
The US and Europe supply Palestinian with 6 times more aid than their Arab brothers.
From the Washington Post
Out of 22 Arab nations that made pledges, only three -- Algeria, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates -- have contributed funds this year, while oil-rich countries such as Libya, Kuwait and Qatar have sent nothing and still owe the Palestinian government more than $700 million in past-due pledges.
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The Palestinian Authority uses the contributions to help pay salaries for civil servants, health-care specialists and other workers in the Palestinian territories. European governments, the World Bank and the United States have provided more than three times as much money as Arab countries this year to keep the government afloat, but officials said the Europeans and the World Bank have virtually depleted their resources, leaving a funding gap of about $800 million for the rest of 2008.
The situation is deeply frustrating to U.S. and Palestinian officials, especially because the aid spigot appeared to turn off after the collapse of a unity government that had included Hamas, which the United States considers a terrorist organization. The new government is headed by moderate Palestinian leaders who favor peace talks with Israel. After it was formed in June 2007, it received only $73 million from Arab countries in the second half of 2007, compared with $371 million given by the Arabs to the unity government in the first half of the year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 00226.html
Kinda funny.
From the Washington Post
Out of 22 Arab nations that made pledges, only three -- Algeria, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates -- have contributed funds this year, while oil-rich countries such as Libya, Kuwait and Qatar have sent nothing and still owe the Palestinian government more than $700 million in past-due pledges.
ad_icon
The Palestinian Authority uses the contributions to help pay salaries for civil servants, health-care specialists and other workers in the Palestinian territories. European governments, the World Bank and the United States have provided more than three times as much money as Arab countries this year to keep the government afloat, but officials said the Europeans and the World Bank have virtually depleted their resources, leaving a funding gap of about $800 million for the rest of 2008.
The situation is deeply frustrating to U.S. and Palestinian officials, especially because the aid spigot appeared to turn off after the collapse of a unity government that had included Hamas, which the United States considers a terrorist organization. The new government is headed by moderate Palestinian leaders who favor peace talks with Israel. After it was formed in June 2007, it received only $73 million from Arab countries in the second half of 2007, compared with $371 million given by the Arabs to the unity government in the first half of the year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 00226.html
Kinda funny.
So if Iran admitted they were giving aid it would be okay? Someone should email Iran and tell them.FEOS wrote:
The key difference is that the US admits to giving Israel assistance.Braddock wrote:
Sorry but Iran "control" the Palestinian side about as much as the US "controls" the Israeli side. The IRA trained ETA and provided them with the means to create many of their bombs, does that mean the Irish were in control of the Basque separatist movement? I like the way when the US give military aid and assistance to Israel it is fine and dandy but if the Palestinians get any aid or assistance from anyone it's a monstrosity.
And nobody said it was a monstrosity. Only that it is a fact.
Palestine being given aid is no more of a monstrosity than Israel getting aid.