Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

An interesting Op'ed.

Europe has begun discussing tough sanctions on Russia for their imperial invasion of Georgia, and it has Vladimir Putin worried.  Normally mild-mannered Germany has broached the idea of freezing Moscow out of the G-7, and Britain has implored its fellow EU partners not to let Russia bully them through energy deliveries.  The mood on the Continent has taken a distinct turn away from Russia, and may get worse:

European heavyweights Germany and Britain questioned Russia’s ties with global institutions on Sunday, a day before EU leaders meet to decide what action to take over the Kremlin’s intervention in Georgia. …

    French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who holds the rotating EU presidency, called the summit so the bloc can respond to Russia’s intervention in Georgia and its recognition of independence for two breakaway regions.

    “In the light of Russian actions, the EU should review — root and branch — our relationship with Russia,” Brown wrote in a comment published in Britain’s Observer newspaper. He made no mention of possible EU sanctions against Russia.

    Referring to Russia’s role as a supplier of more than a quarter of Europe’s gas — which some analysts say has tempered European condemnation — Brown said: “No nation can be allowed to exert an energy stranglehold over Europe.”

    Eckart von Klaeden, who holds the foreign policy brief for Merkel’s Christian Democrats (CDU) in parliament, said leading industrial nations should meet as the G7, without Russia, until Russia complies with international demands.
Putin noted that he expects some kind of action, and worries about the potential fracture from the West:
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has urged EU leaders to show “common sense” and ignore calls for sanctions, while acknowledging Russia was nervous about what’s in store.

    “If I were to say that we don’t care, that we were indifferent, I would be lying,” Putin said in an interview to Germany’s ARD television.

    The powerful former Kremlin leader offered assurances, saying Russians troops “of course will leave these positions where we are now… We will not remain there forever” and declaring that Russia recognises Ukraine’s borders.
This could get ugly, and quickly.  Putin has already threatened the lines of communication recently opened into Afghanistan, which makes the NATO mission more difficult.  Russia can also cut off, restrict, or increase the price on oil and gas flowing into Europe.  More than a quarter of Europe’s energy comes from Russia, and they can do considerable damage to the EU economy.

However, they do that at the risk to their own.  Russia relies on free trade with the West for its own needs.  Putin and Medvedev want entry into the WTO, but now may get excluded from the G-8, a major step backwards in integrating themselves into the global markets.

Georgia struck a note of moderation into this debate.  They want sanctions on Russia, but do not see any point in isolating Moscow.  The Georgians want sanctions targeted to the Russian government — diplomatic sanctions, travel restrictions, and the freezing of assets abroad.  That may be a good first step, and a way to pressure the two leaders in Moscow into re-thinking their plans to create version 3 of the Russian Empire.

In any case, Europe and the US must continue pressuring Moscow into retreating from Georgia.  The pressure thus far has produced a counterproposal for international peacekeepers through the OCSE to replace Russian troops in Georgia proper.  This could be a face-saving way for Putin out of this crisis, but until the last Russian soldier leaves Georgia, one has to consider any of these offers for what it allows Russia, and not how it supposedly restricts Russia.  France made that mistake earlier this month, and the West and Georgia cannot afford to make it again.
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ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7069

This really would not be good. I don't really feel like having my gas cut off.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6763|tropical regions of london
im interested to know what kind of lines of communication russia would threaten in afghanistan.
jord
Member
+2,382|7098|The North, beyond the wall.

ghettoperson wrote:

This really would not be good. I don't really feel like having my gas cut off.
Yup, I've lived with out gas and it's not nice at all. However it's only 25%, so I guess we'll still have some.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire
How's about we figure out where we're going to make up that quarter of our energy requirements before we go kicking anyone out of anything?
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7186|UK

Braddock wrote:

How's about we figure out where we're going to make up that quarter of our energy requirements before we go kicking anyone out of anything?
invade the Caucasian oil fields
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6744|New Haven, CT
With winter uniforms.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

nukchebi0 wrote:

With winter uniforms.
I rather like the Russian uniforms.
https://i31.tinypic.com/2up5ys7.jpg
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ATG
Banned
+5,233|6949|Global Command
In all fairness, we should be kicked out of the G8 until we are out of Iraq.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:

In all fairness, we should be kicked out of the G8 until we are out of Iraq.
Kick the nation state out with the biggest economy out, go for it..
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Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

Braddock wrote:

How's about we figure out where we're going to make up that quarter of our energy requirements before we go kicking anyone out of anything?
Talk is talk in the EU. I wouldn't worry too much.
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God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6763|tropical regions of london
satellite lines of communication?
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6969|UK

Kmarion wrote:

Braddock wrote:

How's about we figure out where we're going to make up that quarter of our energy requirements before we go kicking anyone out of anything?
Talk is talk in the EU. I wouldn't worry too much.
True, they have no real levy anyway. 

Brown in particular has to tread super carefully, as far as am aware the Brits are already screaming for his blood, and another increase in the already projected record costs of gas this winter will be the final nail imo.

Martyn
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6949|Global Command

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

In all fairness, we should be kicked out of the G8 until we are out of Iraq.
Kick the nation state out with the biggest economy out, go for it..
I'm just saying...hypocrisy is embarrassing.
jord
Member
+2,382|7098|The North, beyond the wall.

Kmarion wrote:

Braddock wrote:

How's about we figure out where we're going to make up that quarter of our energy requirements before we go kicking anyone out of anything?
Talk is talk in the West. I wouldn't worry too much.
Edited, because you only people to stand up for what they want anymore are the Middle Easterners and old soviet republics. Nobody gives a shit about anything here.

Plus, as has been said Brown is already walking on thin ice. If anyone whatsoever has to go through the winter freezing his ass is gone.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

jord wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Braddock wrote:

How's about we figure out where we're going to make up that quarter of our energy requirements before we go kicking anyone out of anything?
Talk is talk in the West. I wouldn't worry too much.
Edited, because you only people to stand up for what they want anymore are the Middle Easterners and old soviet republics. Nobody gives a shit about anything here.

Plus, as has been said Brown is already walking on thin ice. If anyone whatsoever has to go through the winter freezing his ass is gone.
Fair enough.
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Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

In all fairness, we should be kicked out of the G8 until we are out of Iraq.
Kick the nation state out with the biggest economy out, go for it..
I'm just saying...hypocrisy is embarrassing.
You should spend a little more time studying the two situations. Your argument here is that of a simpleton. (no offense)
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God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6763|tropical regions of london
I guess my question will never get answered.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

God Save the Queen wrote:

im interested to know what kind of lines of communication russia would threaten in afghanistan.
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr … SL15643228
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/15/n … operation/

It looks like NATO’s sweet-talking to Georgia and Ukraine may have provided an opening for alternate lines of communication through Russia into Afghanistan. NATO diplomats deny it, but the proposal for Russian cooperation on troop transports into the war against the Taliban won’t come for free, and Russia wants nothing more than its buffer states between NATO and their frontier. Both sides may have more on the table than that, too:
NATO said on Saturday it was nearing a deal to use Russian land and airspace to supply its security forces in Afghanistan, but Western diplomats denied any trade-off with Moscow to keep Ukraine and Georgia out of NATO.

    A NATO spokesman said the alliance was negotiating accords on land and air corridors to transport troops and equipment, which could be announced when President Vladimir Putin attends a NATO summit next month.

    Diplomats said a NATO-Russia council meeting on Monday would discuss a “package of deliverables” also including the possible leasing of Russian planes and trains, Russian training for Afghan helicopter pilots and counter-narcotics assistance at a centre near Moscow.

    “Discussions are under way. There is no deal done. We are working towards an agreement at the Bucharest summit,” NATO spokesman James Appathurai said of an April 2-4 meeting in the Romanian capital.
The issue may find a resolution more quickly than that. Condoleezza Rice will meet with Russian diplomats on Monday on a wide range of issues, including cooperation on Afghanistan and Iran. Meanwhile, NATO sources have already begun to downplay any significant move towards admission for Georgia and Ukraine. For the latter, they cite a lack of popular support in Ukraine for the sudden lack of enthusiasm, and for the former their “heavy-handed treatment of opposition protests last year.”

Would such an effort be worth it? Absolutely, and for a reason that Reuters never mentions: Pakistan. Right now, our lines of communication into Afghanistan rely almost entirely on the nuclear-armed Islamic nation. The weakening of Pervez Musharraf has put those supply lines at risk and threaten the entire mission. We rely on overflights of Pakistani airspace to supply our troops, as well as some efforts through Uzbekistan. If we lost the overflight privileges, the NATO effort against the Taliban and al-Qaeda would be doomed.

The question will be at what price we buy reliable routes. Vladimir Putin wants NATO to keep its hands off Georgia and Ukraine, for starters. While that won’t be much of a loss for us, Putin may also demand an end to the missile defense system in Europe. That will go down hard with NATO, and won’t likely come without better cooperation from Russia on Iran. It could set up a wide-ranging horse trade with Putin and Dmitry Medvedev, one that could rearrange much of the politics in eastern Europe and the Caucasus.

We need to build back-up plans for supporting the mission in Afghanistan, and that’s especially true if our relationship with Pakistan sours. This looks like an attempt to rebuild an alliance with Moscow that may set some teeth grinding, but in the long run might — might — provide us with a more rational partner and one with less risk.
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Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

God Save the Queen wrote:

I guess my question will never get answered.
Be patient.. I was trying to give you as much as possible... damn.
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God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6763|tropical regions of london
seemed like you gave everyone a nod except me.  I felt left out, like Im not with the cool kids.

Last edited by God Save the Queen (2008-08-31 16:56:26)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6949|Global Command

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Kick the nation state out with the biggest economy out, go for it..
I'm just saying...hypocrisy is embarrassing.
You should spend a little more time studying the two situations. Your argument here is that of a simpleton. (no offense)
What ethnic Americans were threatened in Iraq?

What exactly were our reason for invading and seeing to the barbaric hanging of a nations leader?


The conflict in Georgia is a direct result of our courting former Soviet territories into NATO.

We may as well have dropped the bombs ourselves.
Ottomania
Troll has returned.
+62|6941|Istanbul-Turkey

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:


I'm just saying...hypocrisy is embarrassing.
You should spend a little more time studying the two situations. Your argument here is that of a simpleton. (no offense)
What ethnic Americans were threatened in Iraq?

What exactly were our reason for invading and seeing to the barbaric hanging of a nations leader?


The conflict in Georgia is a direct result of our courting former Soviet territories into NATO.

We may as well have dropped the bombs ourselves.
What to say anymore?

I just cant believe the difference in you atg.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ATG wrote:

I'm just saying...hypocrisy is embarrassing.
You should spend a little more time studying the two situations. Your argument here is that of a simpleton. (no offense)
What ethnic Americans were threatened in Iraq?
Americans fought and died in this conflict?

ATG wrote:

What exactly were our reason for invading and seeing to the barbaric hanging of a nations leader?
He was tried by Iraqis. But since we are on the subject of hypocrisy, did Saddam deserve anything other than a barbaric end?

ATG wrote:

The conflict in Georgia is a direct result of our courting former Soviet territories into NATO.
We may as well have dropped the bombs ourselves.
No my friend. Look a little further than the last decade. Blaming this all on Nato may be a convenient explanation, but the history goes back much further. The Russians have been playing this game longer than some people would like to believe. Is there any doubt that the Georgians would like to escape the old and oppressive ways? Georgia could have at anytime told us to gtfo. No, instead they picked the western (mostly European) ideology. They wanted it so bad that they showed their commitment by sending troops to fight in our wars. Stop trying to play this off as a one sided solicitation. It simply is not true.
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ATG
Banned
+5,233|6949|Global Command

Kmarion wrote:

What ethnic Americans were threatened in Iraq?
Americans fought and died in this conflict?
No, thankfully none were killed. But were they there? Damn straight.



ATG wrote:

What exactly were our reason for invading and seeing to the barbaric hanging of a nations leader?

Kmarion wrote:

He was tried by Iraqis. But since we are on the subject of hypocrisy, did Saddam deserve anything other than a barbaric end?
If the man had to be executed, it could have been done as a good example, not as yet another act of barbarity. I'm well aware of his crimes, but the manner and method of his death was despicable.

ATG wrote:

The conflict in Georgia is a direct result of our courting former Soviet territories into NATO.
We may as well have dropped the bombs ourselves.

Kmarion wrote:

No my friend. Look a little further than the last decade. Blaming this all on Nato may be a convenient explanation, but the history goes back much further. The Russians have been playing this game longer than some people would like to believe. Is there any doubt that the Georgians would like to escape the old and oppressive ways? Georgia could have at anytime told us to gtfo. No, instead they picked the western (mostly European) ideology. They wanted it so bad that they showed their commitment by sending troops to fight in our wars. Stop trying to play this off as a one sided solicitation. It simply is not true.
Sure. We want Georgia and Ukraine as part of NATO. We want missile shields in Poland.
Why not just stand in front of a beehive and whack it with our dicks?

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