For peace in the Middle East you need the right people in the right place at the right time. In many cases in the past the right people have been in place on one side but not the other; at the moment the Israelis have what could be the right people in place (although I think Olmert is prone to being a complete cunt when he wants to be), they're certainly showing signs of being big enough to make concessions... unfortunately on the other side of the coin HAMAS hold a lot of sway at the moment and they belong in the bold corner to be quite honest.ATG wrote:
Power share?Braddock wrote:
Do you really expect the Palestinians to develop a Government system that is strong enough and influential enough to implement an effective judiciary system capable of such a thing in it's current oppressed state? I don't.FEOS wrote:
Good for Israel.
Now, let's all hold our breath for the conviction of Palestinian militants for killing Israeli civilians...
The Republicans in Northern Ireland were only able make real progress in the quest for peace when they were met half way and given the opportunity to power-share.
The Israelis didn't disarm them, they fenced them in. Far as we know Hamas has power there.
It seems like all the Jews are asking for is somebody to bargain in good faith. Like when they disbanded some of the settlements in exchange for security arrangements and what they got was a barrage of rockets?
Zionism seems to be a bad thing.
What the world needs is cooperation.
Living together can't we share resources?
Does it require a mushroom cloud?
That's all well and good. But we're not talking about "the troubles" in N. Ireland. We're talking about two elected Palestinian governments in two different areas. More specifically, since Fatah is no longer attacking Israeli civilians, we're really only talking about Hamas in Gaza. They're the elected government there...perhaps they should start acting like one.Braddock wrote:
You do realise that during the troubles the IRA enforced laws and conducted their own 'trials' in Republican areas... they were also the ones launching attacks. Now that power sharing is in place it's the politicians and not the paramilitaries who make the decisions.FEOS wrote:
Yes. Yes I do. The "oppressed state" doesn't prevent Hamas or Fatah from enforcing common laws...but their policies do.Braddock wrote:
Do you really expect the Palestinians to develop a Government system that is strong enough and influential enough to implement an effective judiciary system capable of such a thing in it's current oppressed state? I don't.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Perhaps the Israelis should stop stealing ever more Palestinian land and start acting like a legitimate nation.They're the elected government there...perhaps they should start acting like one.
Fuck Israel
So the Israelis abduct three people, beat two of them and kill one thats a 'poor decision'Breaking news: Person makes poor decision, punished by government.
If Hezbollah do it its reasonable to invade Lebanon and kill 1,000 civilians?
Fuck Israel
I'll agree with the first part. They already "act like a legitimate nation" because they are one. And they act a damn sight better than many other "legitimate nations", even taking the Palestinian mess into account.Dilbert_X wrote:
Perhaps the Israelis should stop stealing ever more Palestinian land and start acting like a legitimate nation.They're the elected government there...perhaps they should start acting like one.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I wish they would start acting like one too FEOS, I won't argue on that front.FEOS wrote:
That's all well and good. But we're not talking about "the troubles" in N. Ireland. We're talking about two elected Palestinian governments in two different areas. More specifically, since Fatah is no longer attacking Israeli civilians, we're really only talking about Hamas in Gaza. They're the elected government there...perhaps they should start acting like one.
I presume you're talking mostly about second and third world nations and shady nations like Russia and China because Israel act a damn sight worse than most developed Western nations. Any independent human rights group will tell you that... or is it you who doesn't pay any attention to human rights groups because they are all biased?FEOS wrote:
I'll agree with the first part. They already "act like a legitimate nation" because they are one. And they act a damn sight better than many other "legitimate nations", even taking the Palestinian mess into account.Dilbert_X wrote:
Perhaps the Israelis should stop stealing ever more Palestinian land and start acting like a legitimate nation.They're the elected government there...perhaps they should start acting like one.
Not according to the world outside the thoroughly blinkered and brainwashed - you included - US of A.I'll agree with the first part. They already "act like a legitimate nation" because they are one. And they act a damn sight better than many other "legitimate nations", even taking the Palestinian mess into account.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.as … ;nid=10395
Oh wait, here is news for you.As if Israel’s position in the world in not bad enough, a new survey published in the US Wednesday says that Israel is suffering from the worst public image among all countries of the world.
The study, called the National Brands Index, conducted by government advisor Simon Anholt and powered by global market intelligence solutions provider GMI (Global Market Insite, Inc.), shows that Israel is at the bottom of the list by a considerable margin in the public’s perception of its image.
The Index surveyed 25,903 online consumers across 35 countries about their perceptions of those countries across six areas of national competence: Investment and Immigration, Exports, Culture and Heritage, People, Governance and Tourism. The NBI is the first analytical ranking of the world's nation brands.
"Israel's brand is by a considerable margin the most negative we have ever measured in the NBI, and comes at the bottom of the ranking on almost every question," states report author Simon Anholt.
Anholt believes that the politics of a nation can affect every single aspect of a person's perception about a country. In the light of the recent announcement that the Israeli Foreign Ministry has taken upon itself to re-brand Israel, Anholt comments that to succeed in permanently changing the country's image, the country has to be prepared to change its behavior. He reiterates his strong belief that a reputation cannot be constructed: it has to be earned.
"If Israel's intention is to promote itself as a desirable place to live and invest in, the challenge appears to be a steep one," Anholt concluded.
The survey also indicated that Israel came last in each area by a long margin, including the fact that of the 36 countries ranked, there is nowhere that respondents would like to visit less than Israel. Worse yet, the survey indicates that Israel’s people were also voted the most unwelcoming in the world.
Also http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/971013.htmlAnd there was one more unpleasant surprise: Whoever thought that the United States is Israel’s best friend and Israel is loved in the US, the index indicated that Americans ranked Israel just slightly above China in terms of its conduct in the areas of international peace and security.
Israel, Pakistan, Iran together at the bottom of the list?Israel is viewed as the country with the second most negative influence on the world, according to a poll released recently by the BBC World Service.
Iran was considered to have the most negative influence, ranked lowest in world opinion at 54 percent - the same ranking it was given in a poll taken last year.
Israel's negative rating dropped this year from 57 percent to 52 percent, moving it from having the worst influence in world opinion to second most negative.
Pakistan was rated the country with the third most negative influence in the world.
Fuck Israel
You'll pass out and die from lack of oxygen before that happens.FEOS wrote:
Good for Israel.
Now, let's all hold our breath for the conviction of Palestinian militants for killing Israeli civilians...
Well then, you agree with my point. All those other nations are considered "legitimate" by the likes of Dilbert...Braddock wrote:
I presume you're talking mostly about second and third world nations and shady nations like Russia and China because Israel act a damn sight worse than most developed Western nations. Any independent human rights group will tell you that... or is it you who doesn't pay any attention to human rights groups because they are all biased?
And I really wish you and your Euro buddies would quit twisting my words regarding human rights groups. I never said I don't pay any attention to them or that they lie or anything of the sort. I said they have agendas and biases and that must be taken into account when reading their reports and press releases. Just like every other organization on the planet. Just because they investigate human rights abuse allegations does not make them pure as the driven snow.
And I'd say this also addresses Dilbert's rant following your post. Or is there only a single criteria for "legitimacy" in the world (that criteria being good poll numbers on a single topic, of course)?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Finally.
For years Israel has been letting its armed forces treat Palestinians in ways that are contrary to Israeli law. Don't get me wrong--apologists for terrorists constantly accuse Israel of crimes against humanity for taking security measures to protect itself against rabid mass murderers, but this is something totally different. This is a case of Israelis flagrantly violating Israeli law, and it is not the first time it has happened. Arbitrary and pointless abuse at checkpoints is common, and the border guards are notorious for getting away with totally unjustified assaults. Abuse is not a valid security measure, nor is it Israeli policy. It's a sign of moral decay that it took so long for Israel to convict one of the many abusive members of its armed forces.
For years Israel has been letting its armed forces treat Palestinians in ways that are contrary to Israeli law. Don't get me wrong--apologists for terrorists constantly accuse Israel of crimes against humanity for taking security measures to protect itself against rabid mass murderers, but this is something totally different. This is a case of Israelis flagrantly violating Israeli law, and it is not the first time it has happened. Arbitrary and pointless abuse at checkpoints is common, and the border guards are notorious for getting away with totally unjustified assaults. Abuse is not a valid security measure, nor is it Israeli policy. It's a sign of moral decay that it took so long for Israel to convict one of the many abusive members of its armed forces.
Gee, what a strange result given that people all around the world looooooove Jews.Dilbert_X wrote:
[snip]
Also http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/971013.htmlIsrael, Pakistan, Iran together at the bottom of the list?Israel is viewed as the country with the second most negative influence on the world, according to a poll released recently by the BBC World Service.
Iran was considered to have the most negative influence, ranked lowest in world opinion at 54 percent - the same ranking it was given in a poll taken last year.
Israel's negative rating dropped this year from 57 percent to 52 percent, moving it from having the worst influence in world opinion to second most negative.
Pakistan was rated the country with the third most negative influence in the world.
Yes, that was sarcasm.