Lets not forget that if the consumer decided that charcoal was valuable the price of it would fly through the roof, people would invest in charcoal manufacturing and get rich, until of course the consumer decided charcoal was no longer worth it, then all of you that got rich then lost it would bitch that you were robbed and someone needs to go to jail for it.TheAussieReaper wrote:
Try explaining it like this to him, :there's many more rocks than gold lowing, so gold is more valuable. If there was a lot of gold, it wouldn't be worth much.topal63 wrote:
That doesn't really make sense.lowing wrote:
Why would a retired person who saved and planned for retirment NOt have his money?
I'll try again. When new money is created - it obtains value by stealing value from the existing money supply. Inflation is devaluation of the dollar. That means as I pointed out in the example; a retired person on a fixed income has lost value of whatever money they have (we all have, I have, you have); the value was diluted into the money supply as it has increased. Inflation is a hidden tax; it transfers wealth by dilution as new money almost always flows (in the billions) from the Federal Reserve directly to the Financial sector.
LOL
LOL. It's far from recovering lowing. It made back some ground that was lost, but is nowhere near even what you could consider stable.lowing wrote:
and let me try again., this "economic crisis" is what, a few weeks old and is recovering?
What are you responding to?lowing wrote:
and let me try again., this "economic crisis" is what, a few weeks old and is recovering? Anyone that is bitching about how broke they are now, clearly did not plan like they should have. Money value goes up and down like a yo yo. People who are retired now knew that when they planned for retirement. If you did not plan well enough then you are at fault.topal63 wrote:
That doesn't really make sense.lowing wrote:
Why would a retired person who saved and planned for retirment NOt have his money?
I'll try again. When new money is created - it obtains value by stealing value from the existing money supply. Inflation is devaluation of the dollar. That means as I pointed out in the example; a retired person on a fixed income has lost value in whatever money they have (we all have, I have, you have); the value was diluted into the money supply as it has increased. Inflation is a hidden tax; it transfers wealth by dilution as new money almost steals value from the existing money supply and that new-money almost always flows (in the billions) from the Federal Reserve directly to the Financial sector.
Where do you get the notion that investment is ALWAYS going to pay off for you and it is now a crime when it does not and someone must pay.
Did it ever occur to you that the money made from investing that people rake in during the good times, also had to come from someone else?
The dollar only goes yo-yo like in the short term or against other currency valuations (currency exchange rates). But, it is a constant within our system - that is being devalued by systemic inflation.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-10-13 20:30:26)
Even the humble flower:lowing wrote:
Lets not forget that if the consumer decided that charcoal was valuable the price of it would fly through the roof, people would invest in charcoal manufacturing and get rich, until of course the consumer decided charcoal was no longer worth it, then all of you that got rich then lost it would bitch that you were robbed and someone needs to go to jail for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
Though forgive me for education you on something as trivial as the notion of supply and demand.
The same type of inflation that was experienced in the 70's? Then in the 80's we started to recover, and enjoyed finacial prosperity during the 90'stopal63 wrote:
What are you responding to?lowing wrote:
and let me try again., this "economic crisis" is what, a few weeks old and is recovering? Anyone that is bitching about how broke they are now, clearly did not plan like they should have. Money value goes up and down like a yo yo. People who are retired now knew that when they planned for retirement. If you did not plan well enough then you are at fault.topal63 wrote:
That doesn't really make sense.
I'll try again. When new money is created - it obtains value by stealing value from the existing money supply. Inflation is devaluation of the dollar. That means as I pointed out in the example; a retired person on a fixed income has lost value in whatever money they have (we all have, I have, you have); the value was diluted into the money supply as it has increased. Inflation is a hidden tax; it transfers wealth by dilution as new money almost steals value from the existing money supply and that new-money almost always flows (in the billions) from the Federal Reserve directly to the Financial sector.
Where do you get the notion that investment is ALWAYS going to pay off for you and it is now a crime when it does not and someone must pay.
Did it ever occur to you that the money made from investing that people rake in during the good times, also had to come from someone else?
The dollar only goes yo-yo like in the short term or against other currency valuations (currency exchange rates). But, it is a constant within our system - that is being devalued by systemic inflation.
It is a cycle, just like the housing "crisis" be prepared for worst. You might just retire on the downward swing of the economy.
What are you trying to tell me? A widget is hot, people invest the price goes up until people get bored with it then the bottom falls out and all of the investors are left bitching that the money the took was taken from them.TheAussieReaper wrote:
Even the humble flower:lowing wrote:
Lets not forget that if the consumer decided that charcoal was valuable the price of it would fly through the roof, people would invest in charcoal manufacturing and get rich, until of course the consumer decided charcoal was no longer worth it, then all of you that got rich then lost it would bitch that you were robbed and someone needs to go to jail for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
Though forgive me for education you on something as trivial as the notion of supply and demand.
Dot. Com anyone
They forgot Automotive Parts Companies (AC Delco, Mopar etc)
You'll always need Parts for vehicles.
You'll always need Parts for vehicles.
They didn't eliminate inflation... they only slowed it by a fraction. Also they lowered inflation numerically; the statistics; by altering how the CPI index was calculated (eliminating items from the calculation). Inflation in a monetary system that is based upon debt expansion - is well known to be systemic and constant (at least in ours).lowing wrote:
The same type of inflation that was experienced in the 70's? Then in the 80's we started to recover, and enjoyed finacial prosperity during the 90'stopal63 wrote:
What are you responding to?lowing wrote:
and let me try again., this "economic crisis" is what, a few weeks old and is recovering? Anyone that is bitching about how broke they are now, clearly did not plan like they should have. Money value goes up and down like a yo yo. People who are retired now knew that when they planned for retirement. If you did not plan well enough then you are at fault.
Where do you get the notion that investment is ALWAYS going to pay off for you and it is now a crime when it does not and someone must pay.
Did it ever occur to you that the money made from investing that people rake in during the good times, also had to come from someone else?
The dollar only goes yo-yo like in the short term or against other currency valuations (currency exchange rates). But, it is a constant within our system - that is being devalued by systemic inflation.
It is a cycle, just like the housing "crisis" be prepared for worst. You might just retire on the downward swing of the economy.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-10-13 20:39:14)
I also make more an hour than my father did, who made more an hour than my grandfather did. Wages go up and quality of life is better than ever.topal63 wrote:
They didn't eliminate inflation... that only slowed it by a fraction. Also they lowered inflation statistics by altering how the CPI index was calculated by eliminating items from the calculation. Inflation in monetary system the is based upon debt expansion - is well known to be systemic.lowing wrote:
The same type of inflation that was experienced in the 70's? Then in the 80's we started to recover, and enjoyed finacial prosperity during the 90'stopal63 wrote:
What are you responding to?
The dollar only goes yo-yo like in the short term or against other currency valuations (currency exchange rates). But, it is a constant within our system - that is being devalued by systemic inflation.
It is a cycle, just like the housing "crisis" be prepared for worst. You might just retire on the downward swing of the economy.
You aksed it:lowing wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? A widget is hot, people invest the price goes up until people get bored with it then the bottom falls out and all of the investors are left bitching that the money the took was taken from them.TheAussieReaper wrote:
Even the humble flower:lowing wrote:
Lets not forget that if the consumer decided that charcoal was valuable the price of it would fly through the roof, people would invest in charcoal manufacturing and get rich, until of course the consumer decided charcoal was no longer worth it, then all of you that got rich then lost it would bitch that you were robbed and someone needs to go to jail for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
Though forgive me for education you on something as trivial as the notion of supply and demand.
Dot. Com anyone
Social security does not equal a guaranteed and protected retirement.lowing wrote:
Why would a retired person who saved and planned for retirment NOt have his money?
Back to the origin of our discussion, how do they go-up for a retired person on a fixed income?lowing wrote:
I also make more an hour than my father did, who made more an hour than my grandfather did. Wages go up and quality of life is better than ever.topal63 wrote:
They didn't eliminate inflation... they only slowed it by a fraction. Also they lowered inflation numerically; the statistics; by altering how the CPI index was calculated (eliminating items from the calculation). Inflation in a monetary system that is based upon debt expansion - is well known to be systemic and constant (at least in ours).lowing wrote:
The same type of inflation that was experienced in the 70's? Then in the 80's we started to recover, and enjoyed finacial prosperity during the 90's
It is a cycle, just like the housing "crisis" be prepared for worst. You might just retire on the downward swing of the economy.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-10-13 20:43:28)
If you rely on the govt. for your finacial security then you get what you deserve. Now you know why I do not want th govt. controlling my life. Saving your money, investing diversely does however does guarantee a protected retirement.TheAussieReaper wrote:
You aksed it:lowing wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? A widget is hot, people invest the price goes up until people get bored with it then the bottom falls out and all of the investors are left bitching that the money the took was taken from them.TheAussieReaper wrote:
Even the humble flower:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
Though forgive me for education you on something as trivial as the notion of supply and demand.
Dot. Com anyoneSocial security does not equal a guaranteed and protected retirement.lowing wrote:
Why would a retired person who saved and planned for retirment NOt have his money?
They do not, it was up to the retired person to make sure his porfolio could weather a storm. Especially one that is few weeks old. I say this knowing full well I did not do this, I fucked myself royally. In fact the worse thing that could happen to me is that I grew old.topal63 wrote:
Back to the origin of our discussion, how do they go-up for a retired person on a fixed income?lowing wrote:
I also make more an hour than my father did, who made more an hour than my grandfather did. Wages go up and quality of life is better than ever.topal63 wrote:
They didn't eliminate inflation... they only slowed it by a fraction. Also they lowered inflation numerically; the statistics; by altering how the CPI index was calculated (eliminating items from the calculation). Inflation in a monetary system that is based upon debt expansion - is well known to be systemic and constant (at least in ours).
Last edited by lowing (2008-10-13 20:47:44)
No it doesn't. Harvard did a study comparing stock market investments vs pension plans. And, the pension plan outperformed 401K plans in a broad study. And when considering the potential downside (say I was retiring today on a fixed income; fixed savings 401K equity account) and needed money now - I'd be pulling out from a severely devalued equity pool.lowing wrote:
If you rely on the govt. for your finacial security then you get what you deserve. Now you know why I do not want th govt. controlling my life. Saving your money, investing diversely does however does guarantee a protected retirement.TheAussieReaper wrote:
You aksed it:lowing wrote:
What are you trying to tell me? A widget is hot, people invest the price goes up until people get bored with it then the bottom falls out and all of the investors are left bitching that the money the took was taken from them.
Dot. Com anyoneSocial security does not equal a guaranteed and protected retirement.lowing wrote:
Why would a retired person who saved and planned for retirment NOt have his money?
This is true, but I guess that would depend on exactly when the study was done to judge the results.topal63 wrote:
No it doesn't. Harvard did a study comparing stock market investments vs pension plans. And, the pension plan outperformed 401K plans in a broad study. And when considering the potential downside (say I was retiring today on a fixed income; fixed savings 401K equity account) and needed money now - I'd be pulling out from a severely devalued equity pool.lowing wrote:
If you rely on the govt. for your finacial security then you get what you deserve. Now you know why I do not want th govt. controlling my life. Saving your money, investing diversely does however does guarantee a protected retirement.TheAussieReaper wrote:
You aksed it:
Social security does not equal a guaranteed and protected retirement.
pension plans are going away. it is a benefit that companies find they d onot have to fund in order to get people to work for them.
Believe it or not, company benefits is not a RIGHT, it is a tool that lures quality people to a company.
Last edited by lowing (2008-10-13 20:52:16)
WOW, that statement speaks volumes to me.lowing wrote:
it is a benefit that companies find they do not have to fund a pension plan - in order to get people to work for them.
PS: Having any American employees on American soil is not necessary either.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-10-13 21:46:03)
Is there something I said that is not true?topal63 wrote:
WOW, that statement speaks volumes to me.lowing wrote:
it is a benefit that companies find they do not have to fund a pension plan - in order to get people to work for them.
PS: Having any American employees on American soil is not necessary either.
I am not saying that a company should not be abligated t ofund any pension that was agreed to when an employee joined the company, I think they should grandfather those. But for some reason it seems to be thought of as a RIGHT that people have that a compnay is obligated to take care of their every need outside a paycheck. We ask employers for work, employers offer benefits to attract quality employees away from their competitors. When did you decide that a company is obligated to offer benfits to its employees and why do you think they should?
Yes that is necessary, if you are here ILLEGALLY then you are breaking the law.
Inflation means that wages can go up while everyone becomes poorer.lowing wrote:
I also make more an hour than my father did, who made more an hour than my grandfather did. Wages go up and quality of life is better than ever.
I see, so regardless that every generation has a better quality of life than the one before it, we are all poorer. Sorry I ain't gunna buy that ( I won't even charge it on credit )PureFodder wrote:
Inflation means that wages can go up while everyone becomes poorer.lowing wrote:
I also make more an hour than my father did, who made more an hour than my grandfather did. Wages go up and quality of life is better than ever.
Huh? Why can't you see that one? Say inflation means that grocery prices are going up by, say, 5% a year. That means your pay has to go up by that amount (which may or may not be 5%) in order for you to cover the new rising costs. Nothing has changed... everything has just become a bit more expensive and you need to earn a bit more to keep it in balance. Very simple.lowing wrote:
I see, so regardless that every generation has a better quality of life than the one before it, we are all poorer. Sorry I ain't gunna buy that ( I won't even charge it on credit )PureFodder wrote:
Inflation means that wages can go up while everyone becomes poorer.lowing wrote:
I also make more an hour than my father did, who made more an hour than my grandfather did. Wages go up and quality of life is better than ever.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
It's funny, to me IMO, that you injected ILLEGAL aliens into the equation. Open ended general statements can allow a mind to wander wherever its' bias might take it.lowing wrote:
Is there something I said that is not true?topal63 wrote:
WOW, that statement speaks volumes to me.lowing wrote:
it is a benefit that companies find they do not have to fund a pension plan - in order to get people to work for them.
PS: Having any American employees on American soil is not necessary either.
I am not saying that a company should not be abligated t ofund any pension that was agreed to when an employee joined the company, I think they should grandfather those. But for some reason it seems to be thought of as a RIGHT that people have that a compnay is obligated to take care of their every need outside a paycheck. We ask employers for work, employers offer benefits to attract quality employees away from their competitors. When did you decide that a company is obligated to offer benfits to its employees and why do you think they should?
Yes that is necessary, if you are here ILLEGALLY then you are breaking the law.
I was loosely suggesting in a capitalist dominated ideology/system that is completely disconnected from the benefits and from benefiting the working class; labor class; middle class - such clear disconnects create social problems. And, can be; or is; regulation of the worst possible kind (also, even no regulation itself is a type of regulation). And, having no regulations that benefit the worker such as keeping industry on American soil - means a company can downsize the legal American labor-force out of existence. Globalization you know - downsizing - relocating a plant overseas - exploiting workers and lax-regulations abroad; etc. Then an honest man/woman cannot even find a decent job to do the hard work he/she is capable of. Having regulations on the books that benefit keeping decent jobs in America is not a bad thing - it is a good thing. And a positive social agenda.
Your job is due to a positive social agenda, and that collection of taxes that occurs and thence is redistributed, in this case, finding its way to your contractor/employer produces the positive social result of you having a job. It's a good thing.
Last edited by topal63 (2008-10-14 10:02:22)
best postGod Save the Queen wrote:
I sell crack to suburban white kids
Anything in the Private sector is more vulnerable. So your first point about Health Care, it really isn't recession proof in the US.
Nope, my neighbor just lost his job. He was the administration-head of the respiratory therapists at a hospital owned primarily by an Insurance company. Their overall corporate revenues were down - so they made cuts.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
Anything in the Private sector is more vulnerable. So your first point about Health Care, it really isn't recession proof in the US.
Lowing would be very proud of you, he approves of that kind of thing... apparently it's all the drug-users fault, the person selling the drugs is blame free!God Save the Queen wrote:
I sell crack to suburban white kids