Sad day. Reminds me of the King David Hotel bombing, where British troops and civilians got blown up by cowardly acts of terrorism in the same conflict. That terror campaign ended up with the British packing their bags and leaving them to it as well. A lot of parallels can be drawn.
In fighting an unconventional enemy, you need to have a proper measure of both the Carrot and the Stick.Dilbert_X wrote:
Somalia and Vietnam also showed the US didn't have the stomach to fight a determined unconventional enemy.
(Carrot = incentive = reward = nice stuff like infrastructure, money, building things, water/electricity/sewers/highways ...
Stick = Gulags, disappearing insurgent authors, bombing cities, and generally wrecking the place)
The USA has too often come in, hit the target hard once like they were the redheaded step child, then spent the next few years passing out a cart full of carrots.
ex: Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan
The USSR just tended to come in with a cart full 'o Sticks, and the attitude of "the beatings shall continue until morale improves".
ex: Afghanistan
Both were left wondering why they didn't win...
Now, Somalia and Beirut (and probably Iraq) are different cases.
Somalia and Beirut were cases of ;
"you know what? This area is so fucked up, that nothing we can really do is going to help. Unless we want to stay here and get shot at for the next 25 years, while forcibly keeping the natives from shooting each other - nothing is going to change. We go in, and it's like playing the Cop for Domestic Disturbance night at Mr & Mrs McDrunk's house - they forget they're pissed at each other, and start throwing everything they've got at us".
I don't remember where I heard it, but, in description of some shithole (Somalia?) someone once described it as "These guys are killing each other like it's the national passtime". In some places, it really is. Those places we just need to let sort themselves out.
Edit: And, FFS, be clear about which one you're going for before sending in the troops. Kick the crap out of 'em then leave (Gulf War I), or 'Nation Building (Japan & Germany after WW-2). DON'T switch up in mid-flight - it lets the other side spin it like they won it. Somalia and Beirut we made the right call.. eventually, but not before it was too too late.
Last edited by rdx-fx (2008-10-24 15:18:50)
Well, that may be true of firemen there, but our fire departments here aren't nearly as privileged.ATG wrote:
My brother in law is a Long Beach fireman.
His current shifts consist of 2 24 hour days per week.
He has ample time to have a second career and a pension well beyond 99% of private sector jobs.
My tear cup is empty when they must occasionally sacrifice themselves. It is an awesome paying job with stupid benefits and frankly they are over glorified.
Pretty much agree with everything you said.RDX-FX wrote:
In fighting an unconventional enemy, you need to have a proper measure of both the Carrot and the Stick.
Now why can't the politicians figure it out?
Fuck Israel
And what would that acheive exactly?Ajax_The_Geat wrote:
It'd be a lot easier if we just went in and bombed the shit out of everything and everyone.
Not so much skinny, just light-medium build.Deeznutz wrote:
You are a skinny man.
Fuck Israel
I don't think people consider this to be an invalid target. Just like Khobar Towers, it was a military target, not a civilian/non-combatant one. It meets the criteria for legal under the LOAC. I don't think anybody has issues with the target...maybe the method, but not the target.CameronPoe wrote:
I hate to highlight this fact but the US army, although nominally 'peacekeepers' (which would render this an act of terror), had in fact allied themselves with Lebanese Maronite Christians and were actively engaging in battle. As such this was arguably a legitimate military target for Hisb'allah.
And it was Marines, not Army.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Because they're politicians, not military leaders. They care more about political victory and power consolidation than they do military victory.Dilbert_X wrote:
Pretty much agree with everything you said.RDX-FX wrote:
In fighting an unconventional enemy, you need to have a proper measure of both the Carrot and the Stick.
Now why can't the politicians figure it out?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
But the military only ever think of the stick, which is why they have so many military failures.They care more about political victory and power consolidation than they do military victory.
A short term military victory which in the long run is a political and military disaster is still a disaster.
eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....
Fuck Israel
That is because the military is the stick. It is the politician's job to come up with the carrot, since it was those same politicians who brought out the stick (the military).Dilbert_X wrote:
But the military only ever think of the stick, which is why they have so many military failures.They care more about political victory and power consolidation than they do military victory.
A short term military victory which in the long run is a political and military disaster is still a disaster.
eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....
Oh, and the stick works fine, unless you wrap it is bubble-wrap (i.e. giving the military not enough leeway to conduct operations, use confinint ROEs, or halt them prematurely).
dont know much about the invasion of iraq do yaDilbert_X wrote:
But the military only ever think of the stick, which is why they have so many military failures.They care more about political victory and power consolidation than they do military victory.
A short term military victory which in the long run is a political and military disaster is still a disaster.
eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....
he knows tons and tons about it. he saw it on TVGod Save the Queen wrote:
dont know much about the invasion of iraq do yaDilbert_X wrote:
But the military only ever think of the stick, which is why they have so many military failures.They care more about political victory and power consolidation than they do military victory.
A short term military victory which in the long run is a political and military disaster is still a disaster.
eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....
Last edited by usmarine (2008-10-27 14:28:58)
And read about it on Wikipedia.usmarine wrote:
he knows tons and tons about it. he saw it on TVGod Save the Queen wrote:
dont know much about the invasion of iraq do yaDilbert_X wrote:
But the military only ever think of the stick, which is why they have so many military failures.
A short term military victory which in the long run is a political and military disaster is still a disaster.
eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....
As imortal said, the military's job is to be the stick in the "carrot and stick" approach. Just as diplomacy and economics are intended to be the carrot in the analogy (though sometimes economics can be used as a stick, as well).Dilbert_X wrote:
But the military only ever think of the stick, which is why they have so many military failures.FEOS wrote:
They care more about political victory and power consolidation than they do military victory.
A short term military victory which in the long run is a political and military disaster is still a disaster.
eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam....
Implementation of a single instrument of national power without unity of effort among all four (diplomatic, informational, military, economic) can easily result in a failed national policy (a la Vietnam). However, Iraq and Afghanistan, while both had/have potential to fail, have not yet failed because national policy and therefore implementation of instruments of national power are changing to adjust to the situation on the ground.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular