without making a bunch of quotes i'll just say this: after reading all that has been posted, zimmer kinda has me sold on that theory. It makes sense. On the other hand, it is really scary to think about. I don't actually choose what I do, i just do what i do because it is what i have to do because science says so. Yikes, i think my head just exploded, too much to think about!
Poll
I don't believe in coincidence. Do you?
| Yes | 70% | 70% - 81 | ||||
| No | 17% | 17% - 20 | ||||
| Unsure | 12% | 12% - 14 | ||||
| Total: 115 | ||||||
Nothing happens for a reason.
It all just plain happens.
It all just plain happens.
Yeah I think so too, though would like to think otherwise.Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
Nothing happens for a reason.
It all just plain happens.
If I so choose, I can get off my computer and go for a run, take a shower, go to sleep, whatever.
If there is in fact a person or entity that has predicted this, so be it, it does not have any impact as far as I can tell.
Trying to decide whether there is or is not said person is nothing but a hypothetical exercise in philosophy and has no grounding or implications.
The only argument to support the idea is a "what if," the only argument to refute it is a "what if" so this so called argument is only a matter of imagination.
I'll say here that I also believe that things happen. The world goes on. Shrug.
If there is in fact a person or entity that has predicted this, so be it, it does not have any impact as far as I can tell.
Trying to decide whether there is or is not said person is nothing but a hypothetical exercise in philosophy and has no grounding or implications.
The only argument to support the idea is a "what if," the only argument to refute it is a "what if" so this so called argument is only a matter of imagination.
Why? The only thing that "it happened for a reason" is useful for is scapegoating your emotions. If you believe everything happens for a reason then you're only constricting your own capability. As far as states of minds go, it's a bad one..Sup wrote:
Yeah I think so too, though would like to think otherwise.
I'll say here that I also believe that things happen. The world goes on. Shrug.
Last edited by Defiance (2008-11-23 22:55:54)
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 2#p2393212
Zimmer's complex idea idea was described exactly on that article.
Zimmer's complex idea idea was described exactly on that article.
Flaming_Maniac wrote:
I hate the "determinism, therefore no free will" argument. Just because you don't randomly make decisions does not mean you lack free will to make either decision. You are always going to make the choice that suits you, but free will is deciding what suits you the best. Being the person that makes you make the same decisions that "Fred" knows you will make only means you make choices with purpose, and confirms that you are a discrete personality.
Oh, btw, I didn't even know about that topic until yesterday.
I never, for one minute, said you had no free will or choices to make. I merely stated that your actions are pre-determined, whether you like it or not. That still gives you free will in the present and future, and your choices will still affect your life, but they don't change. If you believe you have choices and free will, then you do. It's an idea in your head, nobody can take that away from you. Everyone believes they do because it's human nature. Yet that still doesn't disprove the theory or make it any worse.
Anyway, to predict the movement of particles and the future, you would need a computer which is made up of more particles than there are in the universe, or else it is theoretically impossible.
I never, for one minute, said you had no free will or choices to make. I merely stated that your actions are pre-determined, whether you like it or not. That still gives you free will in the present and future, and your choices will still affect your life, but they don't change. If you believe you have choices and free will, then you do. It's an idea in your head, nobody can take that away from you. Everyone believes they do because it's human nature. Yet that still doesn't disprove the theory or make it any worse.
Anyway, to predict the movement of particles and the future, you would need a computer which is made up of more particles than there are in the universe, or else it is theoretically impossible.
Zimmer wrote:
Oh, btw, I didn't even know about that topic until yesterday.
I never, for one minute, said you had no free will or choices to make. I merely stated that your actions are pre-determined, whether you like it or not. That still gives you free will in the present and future, and your choices will still affect your life, but they don't change. If you believe you have choices and free will, then you do. It's an idea in your head, nobody can take that away from you. Everyone believes they do because it's human nature. Yet that still doesn't disprove the theory or make it any worse.
Anyway, to predict the movement of particles and the future, you would need a computer which is made up of more particles than there are in the universe, or else it is theoretically impossible.
Zimmer wrote:
Everything we do technically is not out of choice.
Sums up what I wanted to say.Zimmer wrote:
Everything we do technically is not out of choice.
You're not getting it, are you, FM?Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Zimmer wrote:
Oh, btw, I didn't even know about that topic until yesterday.
I never, for one minute, said you had no free will or choices to make. I merely stated that your actions are pre-determined, whether you like it or not. That still gives you free will in the present and future, and your choices will still affect your life, but they don't change. If you believe you have choices and free will, then you do. It's an idea in your head, nobody can take that away from you. Everyone believes they do because it's human nature. Yet that still doesn't disprove the theory or make it any worse.
Anyway, to predict the movement of particles and the future, you would need a computer which is made up of more particles than there are in the universe, or else it is theoretically impossible.Zimmer wrote:
Everything we do technically is not out of choice.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Zimmer, but what I think you're saying is that our sense of 'free will' is an illusion. The underlying, most basic, processes in the Universe are determinable - the apparently 'random' behaviour we see at sub-atomic levels is not actually random, it's probabilistic and therefore determinable.
So every 'thing' and every 'process' that is part of the universe is also determinable. Hence 'free will' is determinable.
Unless you believe in a 'soul' that has 'free will' and that exists outside this universe, that is.
Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-11-25 16:48:14)
In his very first post here Zimmer said we have no choice. Choice is the very basis of free will. The point of the response was he is largely contradicting himself.
Like I said in my first response to this thread, "I hate the "determinism, therefore no free will" argument.". He tried to say my point didn't apply to his by saying free will is still involved in his argument, while it isn't. If he is trying to say what you are saying, then he should have said "predictable" not "pre-determined". Predictable means you know what choice will be made out of the options. Predetermined means there is no choice in the matter.
Like I said in my first response to this thread, "I hate the "determinism, therefore no free will" argument.". He tried to say my point didn't apply to his by saying free will is still involved in his argument, while it isn't. If he is trying to say what you are saying, then he should have said "predictable" not "pre-determined". Predictable means you know what choice will be made out of the options. Predetermined means there is no choice in the matter.
I think he means 'pre-determined' in the sense that when you break in snooker/pool, AS SOON AS you strike the cue ball with the cue the future movements of the cue ball and all other affected balls is fixed.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
In his very first post here Zimmer said we have no choice. Choice is the very basis of free will. The point of the response was he is largely contradicting himself.
Like I said in my first response to this thread, "I hate the "determinism, therefore no free will" argument.". He tried to say my point didn't apply to his by saying free will is still involved in his argument, while it isn't. If he is trying to say what you are saying, then he should have said "predictable" not "pre-determined". Predictable means you know what choice will be made out of the options. Predetermined means there is no choice in the matter.
And that the universe is nothing more than a very large game of billiards.
"Technically" does not mean that we don't and does not mean that I endorse the idea or support it. All I said was that according to the determination theory, we don't. I never for once stated it or said that free will is bullshit. Believe what you want to believe, it's just an idea.
Things happen because they happen, and they are the result of what we do, that's what I think anyway.
#rekt