JoshP
Banned
+176|5954|Notts, UK

Titch2349 wrote:

chuyskywalker wrote:

OR you could have a modular distrubution which you can fully customize. Want high end graphics and touchscreen, but those. Want that with business tools to? Done.
This seems a great idea....

You start off with like... Windows Vista Basic, and then can add the features (Aero, Media Center, Dreamscene), at extra cost- just like customising a PC
It would be good - except MS would most likely use this as an excuse for inflated prices on their already overpriced operating systems

Then again, it would be pretty complicated, personally I'd prefer to get a version with everything in and just install the extra features i need on demand, similar to when you install Office 07, and set all the more obscure programs to only install when you first use them.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6914

One version. In 64bit only.
mikkel
Member
+383|6866

chuyskywalker wrote:

True, the problem isn't so much that there are different ways you can purchase the OS, it's that it comes in X,Y,and Z setup and only those setups.

In order to satisfy everyone, you could have a single distrobution which has everything. OR you could have a modular distrubution which you can fully customize. Want high end graphics and touchscreen, but those. Want that with business tools to? Done.

However, the way MS has gone about it for Vista/XP/etc is somewhere in the awkward middle. They create tons and tons of different pre-set feature sets. The problem with this is that no setup (usually) matches exactly what you need. The most common complaint with Vista was "Well, I would be happy with X version, but I just need feature Y from version Z" or "I had to buy the more expensive version for feature Y, but now I have all this other stuff I don't need."

Going down this road with more and more preordained setups also adds complexity to the original purchasing decision (a lot of it) because with each extra pre-set feature list you have one more contender in the field of "not quite right" lists.

Eventually, it has to lead to a "add the components you need" OS which probably comes in a few recommended default (ie: home, business, ultimate) and you can add/remove OS features from there. I doubt that will be Win7 though.
Microsoft neither would nor could do OS modularity in anything other than the coarsest of implementations. Customisation adds complexity, and in a system as interdependent as an OS, modularity and package management always brings with it dependency issues and software version incompatabilities between interdependent applications. The best you can hope for is to make these as few as possible, but even the best package manager will fail at some point, and user intervention outside of package management systems could kill the system completely.

In short, granular modularity is hell to support, and one thing people often forget is that Microsoft has to provide support to all their retail sales, and OEMs have to provide support for the operating systems on the machines that they sell on to customers. The entire cost structure would be whacked out of place by many-fold increases in support requests.

When you have a system with an installed base of hundreds upon hundreds of millions of copies, sold to users who have little to no understanding of how the system works, the only feasible way to manage it is to either not provide general support for it, to charge obscene amounts for support, or to streamline the system as much as practically possible, the latter being preferred for average personal users.

Last edited by mikkel (2009-01-11 06:36:07)

TheDonkey
Eat my bearrrrrrrrrrr, Tonighttt
+163|5982|Vancouver, BC, Canada

Freezer7Pro wrote:

32/64bit versions, obviously, and really cheap/basic version (Like XP home), then an advanced version (Like XP Pro), and upon that, a version that actually gives you some freedom to do stuff with it ("Advanced", perhaps?)
It should be 7Home Basic, 7Premium, and 7Ultimate, imo.

Basic being what's in Vista's Home Premium,
Premium being Vista premium + business
Ultimate being everything put together.(BUT WITH AN INSTALLER THAT LETS YOU CHOOSE FEATURES)
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6718|The Twilight Zone

TheDonkey wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

32/64bit versions, obviously, and really cheap/basic version (Like XP home), then an advanced version (Like XP Pro), and upon that, a version that actually gives you some freedom to do stuff with it ("Advanced", perhaps?)
It should be 7Home Basic, 7Premium, and 7Ultimate, imo.

Basic being what's in Vista's Home Premium,
Premium being Vista premium + business
Ultimate being everything put together.(BUT WITH AN INSTALLER THAT LETS YOU CHOOSE FEATURES)
^^For consumer + Enterprise for offices
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6787|...

Both 32 bit and 64 bit versions of a Home user and Pro user (IIS, RDP, can run developer servers like BizTalk, Sql Server Etc)

Of those you will have a an OEM, Retail, and corporate licensing schemes.

Last edited by jsnipy (2009-01-11 12:20:33)

CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine

VicktorVauhn wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Zero.

Long live ubuntu.
Unless you actually need your computer to do work...
lawl, wtf are you on about?

The Linux kernal is built on a lot of fundamentals of Unix, which originally was a purely corporate OS...for...working.

So I don't know where you got the idea that Linux was only to play around with, but you couldn't be more wrong.

Anyhow, if I had actually bought Vista, I would have got Home Premium, because there is nothing worth having in the other versions that can't be had in open source.
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6787|...

CrazeD wrote:

VicktorVauhn wrote:

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Zero.

Long live ubuntu.
Unless you actually need your computer to do work...
lawl, wtf are you on about?

The Linux kernal is built on a lot of fundamentals of Unix, which originally was a purely corporate OS...for...working.

So I don't know where you got the idea that Linux was only to play around with, but you couldn't be more wrong.

Anyhow, if I had actually bought Vista, I would have got Home Premium, because there is nothing worth having in the other versions that can't be had in open source.
"corporate OS" for data entry clerks and unix programmers

Depends on the definition of "work". Pretty much my entire career has been development/design for a corporate environment. tbh most productivity tools used by regular workers are all mostly web based anyway so the individual worker's OS for the most part does not really matter. Problem I always see is infrastructure, integrations, SSO, etc. Cost is more the licenses. It would be once thing if all you had to do was set everything up one time and watch it be stable and not crash, the problem is changes, mergers, integrations, etc. I'm not saying its not possible because people have done it, but you have to give M$ credit for well their products integrate (despite being closed source) and how extensible they are. There is no one size fits all answer ... Then again that's one narrow perspective.

Last edited by jsnipy (2009-01-11 13:10:23)

CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine
Perhaps I missed an example, because Microsoft has terrible integration. It tries to make everything its own format and version, instead of using standards and thus has to be converted or interpreted for it to be compatible with other programs and such.

GNU preaches open source and sharing, so pretty much every Linux application that is open source follows the standards and can share with other programs very easily.

You can do anything in Linux that you can do in Windows, except utilize DirectX.
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6787|...

CrazeD wrote:

Perhaps I missed an example, because Microsoft has terrible integration. It tries to make everything its own format and version, instead of using standards and thus has to be converted or interpreted for it to be compatible with other programs and such.

GNU preaches open source and sharing, so pretty much every Linux application that is open source follows the standards and can share with other programs very easily.

You can do anything in Linux that you can do in Windows, except utilize DirectX.
I agree with "You can do anything in Linux that you can do in Windows". How you get there is the issue. Microsoft is definitely guilty of making proprietary formats and attempting to steer the course of the universe, but tbh there wasn't a lot of open source free love when they began. They have gotten a lot better in allowing standards to be implemented, but no they aren't all there, and probably never will be. IBM, same way, Sun same way. BEA, same way. Oracle, same way. Apple, same way.

I'm not sure what your experiences are but in my experiences they have been on point, sure there are always issues, there are always issues with ANYTHING, unless your job is simple, in which case a monkey should be doing the job. I've worked with tomcat and jboss have has the same issues. Its foolish to take sides, case by case, do what works.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but this is not black and white.

Last edited by jsnipy (2009-01-11 13:37:01)

CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine

jsnipy wrote:

CrazeD wrote:

Perhaps I missed an example, because Microsoft has terrible integration. It tries to make everything its own format and version, instead of using standards and thus has to be converted or interpreted for it to be compatible with other programs and such.

GNU preaches open source and sharing, so pretty much every Linux application that is open source follows the standards and can share with other programs very easily.

You can do anything in Linux that you can do in Windows, except utilize DirectX.
I agree with "You can do anything in Linux that you can do in Windows". How you get there is the issue. Microsoft is definitely guilty of making proprietary formats and attempting to steer the course of the universe, but tbh there wasn't a lot of open source free love when they began. They have gotten a lot better in allowing standards to be implemented, but no they aren't all there, and probably never will be. IBM, same way, Sun same way. BEA, same way. Oracle, same way. Apple, same way.

I'm not sure what your experiences are but in my experiences they have been on point, sure there are always issues, there are always issues with ANYTHING, unless your job is simple, in which case a monkey should be doing the job. I've worked with tomcat and jboss have has the same issues. Its foolish to take sides, case by case, do what works.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but this is not black and white.
Well, the original argument was that you shouldn't use Linux "if you actually want to do work".

I can see from your post that we both agree that is foolish.

I don't have much experience with a corporate setting, however I do know that pretty much all of Microsofts applications can be bested by open source equivalents. Open Office > Microsoft Office, for example.
TheDonkey
Eat my bearrrrrrrrrrr, Tonighttt
+163|5982|Vancouver, BC, Canada
Windows may be proprietary shit, but everyone uses it, and almost all programs are written for it(Think about it, it's true) so I shall stick with it.

Sure, that sort of attitude won't change much, sure I want a more stable OS, but NO, I don't want to have to switch to Ubuntu for it, I like the eyecandy of 7, I like being able to play games without jumping through hoops, and so on and so fourth.
CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine

TheDonkey wrote:

Windows may be proprietary shit, but everyone uses it, and almost all programs are written for it(Think about it, it's true) so I shall stick with it.

Sure, that sort of attitude won't change much, sure I want a more stable OS, but NO, I don't want to have to switch to Ubuntu for it, I like the eyecandy of 7, I like being able to play games without jumping through hoops, and so on and so fourth.
Find me a program that is in Windows and is not available for Linux (and I'm not talking about games).
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6787|...

CrazeD wrote:

TheDonkey wrote:

Windows may be proprietary shit, but everyone uses it, and almost all programs are written for it(Think about it, it's true) so I shall stick with it.

Sure, that sort of attitude won't change much, sure I want a more stable OS, but NO, I don't want to have to switch to Ubuntu for it, I like the eyecandy of 7, I like being able to play games without jumping through hoops, and so on and so fourth.
Find me a program that is in Windows and is not available for Linux (and I'm not talking about games).
OneNote (and no not evernote, not nearly as good) actually if you find something like it ill +1 you forever

Last edited by jsnipy (2009-01-11 13:44:55)

jsnipy
...
+3,277|6787|...

CrazeD wrote:

I can see from your post that we both agree that is foolish.
Very true.
CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine

jsnipy wrote:

CrazeD wrote:

TheDonkey wrote:

Windows may be proprietary shit, but everyone uses it, and almost all programs are written for it(Think about it, it's true) so I shall stick with it.

Sure, that sort of attitude won't change much, sure I want a more stable OS, but NO, I don't want to have to switch to Ubuntu for it, I like the eyecandy of 7, I like being able to play games without jumping through hoops, and so on and so fourth.
Find me a program that is in Windows and is not available for Linux (and I'm not talking about games).
OneNote (and no not evernote, not nearly as good) actually if you find something like it ill +1 you forever
http://basket.kde.org/

How about this?
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6813|San Diego, CA, USA
I just want one that works...Long Live XP!!!
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6914

CrazeD wrote:

TheDonkey wrote:

Windows may be proprietary shit, but everyone uses it, and almost all programs are written for it(Think about it, it's true) so I shall stick with it.

Sure, that sort of attitude won't change much, sure I want a more stable OS, but NO, I don't want to have to switch to Ubuntu for it, I like the eyecandy of 7, I like being able to play games without jumping through hoops, and so on and so fourth.
Find me a program that is in Windows and is not available for Linux (and I'm not talking about games).
Photoshop.
CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine

ghettoperson wrote:

CrazeD wrote:

TheDonkey wrote:

Windows may be proprietary shit, but everyone uses it, and almost all programs are written for it(Think about it, it's true) so I shall stick with it.

Sure, that sort of attitude won't change much, sure I want a more stable OS, but NO, I don't want to have to switch to Ubuntu for it, I like the eyecandy of 7, I like being able to play games without jumping through hoops, and so on and so fourth.
Find me a program that is in Windows and is not available for Linux (and I'm not talking about games).
Photoshop.
There are many alternatives, or you can use Wine.
Freezer7Pro
I don't come here a lot anymore.
+1,447|6462|Winland

CrazeD wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

CrazeD wrote:


Find me a program that is in Windows and is not available for Linux (and I'm not talking about games).
Photoshop.
There are many alternatives, or you can use Wine.
Punkbuster.
The idea of any hi-fi system is to reproduce the source material as faithfully as possible, and to deliberately add distortion to everything you hear (due to amplifier deficiencies) because it sounds 'nice' is simply not high fidelity. If that is what you want to hear then there is no problem with that, but by adding so much additional material (by way of harmonics and intermodulation) you have a tailored sound system, not a hi-fi. - Rod Elliot, ESP
CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine

Freezer7Pro wrote:

CrazeD wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


Photoshop.
There are many alternatives, or you can use Wine.
Punkbuster.

CrazeD wrote:

(and I'm not talking about games).
GR34
Member
+215|6810|ALBERTA> CANADA
Punkbuster is not a game...
mikkel
Member
+383|6866

CrazeD wrote:

Perhaps I missed an example, because Microsoft has terrible integration. It tries to make everything its own format and version, instead of using standards and thus has to be converted or interpreted for it to be compatible with other programs and such.

GNU preaches open source and sharing, so pretty much every Linux application that is open source follows the standards and can share with other programs very easily.

You can do anything in Linux that you can do in Windows, except utilize DirectX.
You're very welcome to try to create a corporate network with the same granularity of control, same relative ease of management, same extensive control elements, and the same seamless integration with clients as Windows coupled with Active Directory gives you, using Linux for your clients and servers. If you can do it cheaper, easier and with more seamless integration between client and server systems than the Microsoft solution, then you can say that Linux can do anything that Windows can do.

You can do good things in Linux, but there are areas where it has absolutely nothing on Microsoft solutions. It's not just for kicks that businesses pay for Microsoft solutions. They get a better solution than anyone else can provide.

Last edited by mikkel (2009-01-11 16:30:17)

jsnipy
...
+3,277|6787|...

GR34 wrote:

Punkbuster is not a game...
buts its a service FOR games
CrazeD
Member
+368|6938|Maine

mikkel wrote:

CrazeD wrote:

Perhaps I missed an example, because Microsoft has terrible integration. It tries to make everything its own format and version, instead of using standards and thus has to be converted or interpreted for it to be compatible with other programs and such.

GNU preaches open source and sharing, so pretty much every Linux application that is open source follows the standards and can share with other programs very easily.

You can do anything in Linux that you can do in Windows, except utilize DirectX.
You're very welcome to try to create a corporate network with the same granularity of control, same relative ease of management, same extensive control elements, and the same seamless integration with clients as Windows coupled with Active Directory gives you, using Linux for your clients and servers. If you can do it cheaper, easier and with more seamless integration between client and server systems than the Microsoft solution, then you can say that Linux can do anything that Windows can do.

You can do good things in Linux, but there are areas where it has absolutely nothing on Microsoft solutions. It's not just for kicks that businesses pay for Microsoft solutions. They get a better solution than anyone else can provide.
But everyone is trained on Windows solutions. If people were trained on Linux machines and knew them in and out, it'd be fine. Also remember that you can pretty much write any program for Linux just as you can for Windows.

Plus the fact that Linux is free, and it is a fuckuva lot more stable than Windows and also nearly immune to malicious software. Therefore you just saved a shitload of money on licenses and IT personal to fix the software when you get viruses.

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