ATG
Banned
+5,233|6945|Global Command
I am curious. What part of it still exists and is secure?

Lets see, buy a home, invest all your money on improvements and property taxes and lose 50%+ of its value in one year.  Not.

Have a 401k savings plan, have half of your savings wiped out in one year. Whoops.

Saving for your kids college with investments in the stock market. Nope.

Work your whole life and have some sort of a retirement because of your social security paycheck with holdings; not there either.

Go to the polling place knowing your vote matters. Sorry.


So, what is the American dream again?

ps, I aint bitching, I want to know. What is there to have faith in again?
https://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/06/princesspeachhouseofcards.jpg
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA
ATG, honestly, I have no idea. I am in the same boat, 401k tanked, home value depreciated so much I am probably upside down.

THe only thing going for me now is health, my job and being debt free ( except for home).



Such a sad reality I can find nothing positve to say. Excellent post.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7037|London, England

ATG wrote:

Saving for your kids college with investments in the stock market. Nope.

ATG-Remixed and Fixed wrote:

Gambling your kids college money at the Casino on Wall Street

ATG wrote:

Lets see, buy a home, invest all your money on improvements and property taxes and lose 50%+ of its value in one year.
Unless you're one of those people that wanted to make easy money by buying homes and selling them for profit after doing abit of work, then there ain't much of a problem. If you intend on staying at that home for a long time, and you know, actually living in it and using it as a home, then there's no worry as it'll go back up soon... well maybe not for a few years, but still. Planning on selling your house in the next few years?

Obviously it's still a piss-take though

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-01-16 08:28:01)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6971
I'm reading 'The Grapes Of Wrath' at the moment. It is very pertinent right now. Great book and I'm only just over halfway through. The problem is that the free market capitalism the elite designed is horribly flawed and the US system is skewed a bit too far to the right. Any system that is not designed to sustainably and consistently operate in the best interests of society needs to be sorted out. The problem is that humankind and politicians never learn from past errors - I'm reading a book set in the 1930s and the modern day version of what it documents is happening again right now some 70 years later. Globalisation has brought benefits but it has also made the economy an unwieldly, barely controllable, dangerous beast. Every human being should be entitled to employment. The system as it stands does not ensure this. That needs to be addressed. Noone can hedge for one or two years of continued unemployment or bare sustenance employment, let alone raise a family in such conditions.

In a word: we need an economic revolution.

On the vote issue the US has become a bit overblown. The larger a nation becomes, the less representative and accountable the government becomes and the more prone to corruption/whims of rich special interest groups it becomes.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6945|Global Command

Mekstizzle wrote:

ATG wrote:

Saving for your kids college with investments in the stock market. Nope.

ATG-Remixed and Fixed wrote:

Gambling your kids college money at the Casino on Wall Street

ATG wrote:

Lets see, buy a home, invest all your money on improvements and property taxes and lose 50%+ of its value in one year.
Unless you're one of those people that wanted to make easy money by buying homes and selling them for profit after doing abit of work, then there ain't much of a problem. If you intend on staying at that home for a long time, and you know, actually living in it and using it as a home, then there's no worry as it'll go back up soon... well maybe not for a few years, but still. Planning on selling your house in the next few years?

Obviously it's still a piss-take though
That's nuts dude.
I will have to be making $3500 a month payments based on the value it was when I bought it when the average mortgage at current value is $1800.00. The situation is, I am better off cutting my losses and renting than chasing a high mortgage when all indicators are I will not have equity for fifteen years. That dream is dead for those who bought within the last three years. All the downpayment and all the monthly payments are just gone. And I will get a 10-99 for the difference from the mortgage company.

When people say " I lost value and it came back " they were talking about a 20% cut, not the 75% it is predicted to bottom out at. I have lost 60% and counting and got my default notice on my second yesterday.


oh, here's another for the list;

Spend twenty years mastering a trade knowing that illegal aliens will not come and destroy the market value of your skills. Forgettabout  it.

How about fair market value of basic things like milk and food that you need to feed your children; no fucking way. Don't ask why we are pushing ethanol knowing people will starve because of it, you don't want to know.
Lawmakers are looking for ways to use the forthcoming stimulus bill to help dairy farmers, and the number one priority is to dampen milk supplies and prop up prices. Translation: reduce the nation's dairy herd. The so-called Cooperatives Working Together program has paid farmers since 2003 to retire cows. In 2007, the program helped take 52,783 cows out of production to prop up milk prices.
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/arti … /FRONTPAGE

Last edited by ATG (2009-01-16 08:44:13)

CoronadoSEAL
pics or it didn't happen
+207|6934|USA
free thought and expression.  nobody can take that away from me.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6945|Global Command

CameronPoe wrote:

In a word: we need an economic revolution.
I would be very interest in discussing in a serious manner how this may be achieved.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm reading 'The Grapes Of Wrath' at the moment. It is very pertinent right now. Great book and I'm only just over halfway through. The problem is that the free market capitalism the elite designed is horribly flawed and the US system is skewed a bit too far to the right. Any system that is not designed to sustainably and consistently operate in the best interests of society needs to be sorted out. The problem is that humankind and politicians never learn from past errors - I'm reading a book set in the 1930s and the modern day version of what it documents is happening again right now some 70 years later. Globalisation has brought benefits but it has also made the economy an unwieldly, barely controllable, dangerous beast. Every human being should be entitled to employment. The system as it stands does not ensure this. That needs to be addressed. Noone can hedge for one or two years of continued unemployment or bare sustenance employment, let alone raise a family in such conditions.

In a word: we need an economic revolution.

On the vote issue the US has become a bit overblown. The larger a nation becomes, the less representative and accountable the government becomes and the more prone to corruption/whims of rich special interest groups it becomes.
I am cherry picking here Cam but I am stuck on your choice of the word "entitled"..as in "every human being should be entitled to a job'.

In my very humble opinion, it is this mindset of entitlement over earning that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Capitalism works, it is those who do not contribute to it and still withdrawals from it that is sinking our ship.

Last edited by lowing (2009-01-16 08:49:33)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

In a word: we need an economic revolution.
I would be very interest in discussing in a serious manner how this may be achieved.
It can't happen, you were right you can not have revolution without violence and bloodshed, the term economic revolution only denote the reason economic it does not denote a method.
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6909|Connecticut

ATG wrote:

Lets see, buy a home, invest all your money on improvements and property taxes and lose 50%+ of its value in one year.  Not.
Depends where you live, mine went down but is actually up now. Plus, it beats renting cuz at least you will OWN it someday, no matter how the market bounces

ATG wrote:

Have a 401k savings plan, have half of your savings wiped out in one year. Whoops.
Its not about value right now bud, it's about volume. Maintain your investments and you will be wealthy in 30 years.

ATG wrote:

Saving for your kids college with investments in the stock market secure money markets
Fixed

ATG wrote:

Go to the polling place knowing your vote matters. Sorry.
Agreed


ATG wrote:

So, what is the American dream again?
It's still the same, except most folks are too lazy these days to try and work for it.

Ducks quack, Eagles soar. Be an Eagle.
Malloy must go
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6971

lowing wrote:

I am cherry picking here Cam but I am stuck on your choice of the word "entitled"..as in "every human being should be entitled to a job'.

In my very humble opinion, it is this mindset of entitlement over earning that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Capitalism works, it is those who do not contribute to it and still withdraws from it that is sinking our ship.
On this earth I should be entitled to work and earn a living to feed, clothe and shelter myself so long as this planet has spare capacity to allow it. The proportion of people withdrawing from the system unjustly is a drop in the ocean compared against the real problems with the system - the boom and bust unsustainability of placing trust in the massively overgrown and complex beast known as 'the global economy' - where the actions of others (often CEOs, politicians, bankers, intertest groups - the real power wielders) impinge upon your life whether you deserve to take a hit or not. Capitalism is the best system - but not pure capitalism. Human beings are often ignorant and short-sighted. Often times, they don't think past next week, next month or next year. Their ignorance and short-sightedness of the masses, en masse, can cause ruin for those who have been diligent and that have trusted in 'the system' (as we see today). Responsibility and sustainability must be enforced by the government or by regulators and those governments and regulators must be clearly and transparently accountable to the masses. Stubborn unions devoid of pragmatism or realism do play a part in the downfall too. But any management worth it's salt can and should break unreasonableness in the union as a rule - eithe that or fail.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-01-16 08:56:42)

PureFodder
Member
+225|6702

lowing wrote:

I am cherry picking here Cam but I am stuck on your choice of the word "entitled"..as in "every human being should be entitled to a job'.

In my very humble opinion, it is this mindset of entitlement over earning that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Capitalism works, it is those who do not contribute to it and still withdrawals from it that is sinking our ship.
Seeing as welfare in the US is at the lowest level in the post WWII period, why is it going wrong now?

On another matter, regarding house prices, it was a massive bubble in the housing market, what we are seeing now is the correction of that bubble. The prices are going back down and staying there. They will not go back up to the prices seen 2 years ago.
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6909|Connecticut

ATG wrote:

When people say " I lost value and it came back " they were talking about a 20% cut, not the 75% it is predicted to bottom out at. I have lost 60% and counting and got my default notice on my second yesterday.
I owe about $300,000 left on my house. It is valued at $421,000. We have paid about $60,000 over the last few years and we bought it for $370,000. My rate is 5.25%, fixed over 30 years. Do I not have equity?
Malloy must go
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I am cherry picking here Cam but I am stuck on your choice of the word "entitled"..as in "every human being should be entitled to a job'.

In my very humble opinion, it is this mindset of entitlement over earning that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Capitalism works, it is those who do not contribute to it and still withdraws from it that is sinking our ship.
On this earth I should be entitled to work and earn a living to feed, clothe and shelter myself so long as this planet has spare capacity to allow it. The proportion of people withdrawing from the system unjustly is a drop in the ocean compared against the real problems with the system - the boom and bust unsustainability of placing trust in the massively overgrown and complex beast known as 'the global economy' - where the actions of others (often CEOs, politicians, bankers, intertest groups - the real power wielders) impinge upon your life whether you deserve to take a hit or not. Capitalism is the best system - but not pure capitalism. Human beings are often ignorant and short-sighted. Often times, they don't think past next week, next month or next year. Their ignorance and short-sightedness of the masses, en masse, can cause ruin for those who have been diligent and that have trusted in 'the system' (as we see today). Responsibility and sustainability must be enforced by the government or by regulators and those governments and regulators must be clearly and transparently accountable to the masses. Stubborn unions devoid of pragmatism or realism do play a part in the downfall too. But any management worth it's salt can and should break unreasonableness in the union as a rule - eithe that or fail.
Mainly I agree except I think you should be entitled to an opportunity to earn etc.....NOT entitled by default. Earners make up the build blocks of scoieties NOT the parasites.
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6909|Connecticut

deeznutz1245 wrote:

ATG wrote:

When people say " I lost value and it came back " they were talking about a 20% cut, not the 75% it is predicted to bottom out at. I have lost 60% and counting and got my default notice on my second yesterday.
I owe about $300,000 left on my house. It is valued at $421,000. We have paid about $60,000 over the last few years and we bought it for $370,000. My rate is 5.25%, fixed over 30 years. Do I not have equity?
Side note: I am not by any means wealthy so don't think because the value of my home indicates  I am. I live in CT where homes are expensive and wages are higher due to cost of living. My home is average here.
Malloy must go
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6945|Global Command

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm reading 'The Grapes Of Wrath' at the moment. It is very pertinent right now. Great book and I'm only just over halfway through. The problem is that the free market capitalism the elite designed is horribly flawed and the US system is skewed a bit too far to the right. Any system that is not designed to sustainably and consistently operate in the best interests of society needs to be sorted out. The problem is that humankind and politicians never learn from past errors - I'm reading a book set in the 1930s and the modern day version of what it documents is happening again right now some 70 years later. Globalisation has brought benefits but it has also made the economy an unwieldly, barely controllable, dangerous beast. Every human being should be entitled to employment. The system as it stands does not ensure this. That needs to be addressed. Noone can hedge for one or two years of continued unemployment or bare sustenance employment, let alone raise a family in such conditions.

In a word: we need an economic revolution.

On the vote issue the US has become a bit overblown. The larger a nation becomes, the less representative and accountable the government becomes and the more prone to corruption/whims of rich special interest groups it becomes.
I am cherry picking here Cam but I am stuck on your choice of the word "entitled"..as in "every human being should be entitled to a job'.

In my very humble opinion, it is this mindset of entitlement over earning that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Capitalism works, it is those who do not contribute to it and still withdraws from it that is sinking our ship.
Perhaps he means there should be no discrimination as to who is allowed to work or not. Some people, it's like this; I think the government should have put restrictions on corporations moving over seas as that, at least for a while takes away those peoples right to their  unemployement. Sure, you can say, get a education, find a white collar job, but there can only be so many of those. There is a massive disconnect between the realities of our population, and the assistance of the feds in outsourcing jobs. There is a shrinking job market. There is a constant inflow and presence of a underclass that exists outside normal counting, that nibbles into the job market that remains, that does not pay into the system as the rest of us do,  and that consumes a high porportion of services. In effect, I am being robbing of my entitlement to a country of law and order.


This leads back to the question, what about our government, exactly is there to have faith in? Is not a major part of the American Dream and honest dollar for and honest job, law and order and security that fraud and lies are not the very foundation of our system?




I'm imagining a future where Walmart has a division similar to Blackwater. Where the B of A logo is part of our flag.

Madness. Cam, saying our grandchildren will be paying for this is an acknowledgement that this is an insidious situation that cannot be tolerated. We have a duty to ensure that there is something that resembles George Washingtons America, not the corporatecleptocracy it is now. As for the rest of the world, perhaps there are patriots out there who will help us. Patriotism is no longer about nations in this cesspool of globalization and consolidation of power, it is about free people looking out for each other.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA

ATG wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm reading 'The Grapes Of Wrath' at the moment. It is very pertinent right now. Great book and I'm only just over halfway through. The problem is that the free market capitalism the elite designed is horribly flawed and the US system is skewed a bit too far to the right. Any system that is not designed to sustainably and consistently operate in the best interests of society needs to be sorted out. The problem is that humankind and politicians never learn from past errors - I'm reading a book set in the 1930s and the modern day version of what it documents is happening again right now some 70 years later. Globalisation has brought benefits but it has also made the economy an unwieldly, barely controllable, dangerous beast. Every human being should be entitled to employment. The system as it stands does not ensure this. That needs to be addressed. Noone can hedge for one or two years of continued unemployment or bare sustenance employment, let alone raise a family in such conditions.

In a word: we need an economic revolution.

On the vote issue the US has become a bit overblown. The larger a nation becomes, the less representative and accountable the government becomes and the more prone to corruption/whims of rich special interest groups it becomes.
I am cherry picking here Cam but I am stuck on your choice of the word "entitled"..as in "every human being should be entitled to a job'.

In my very humble opinion, it is this mindset of entitlement over earning that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Capitalism works, it is those who do not contribute to it and still withdraws from it that is sinking our ship.
Perhaps he means there should be no discrimination as to who is allowed to work or not. Some people, it's like this; I think the government should have put restrictions on corporations moving over seas as that, at least for a while takes away those peoples right to their  unemployement. Sure, you can say, get a education, find a white collar job, but there can only be so many of those. There is a massive disconnect between the realities of our population, and the assistance of the feds in outsourcing jobs. There is a shrinking job market. There is a constant inflow and presence of a underclass that exists outside normal counting, that nibbles into the job market that remains, that does not pay into the system as the rest of us do,  and that consumes a high porportion of services. In effect, I am being robbing of my entitlement to a country of law and order.


This leads back to the question, what about our government, exactly is there to have faith in? Is not a major part of the American Dream and honest dollar for and honest job, law and order and security that fraud and lies are not the very foundation of our system?




I'm imagining a future where Walmart has a division similar to Blackwater. Where the B of A logo is part of our flag.

Madness. Cam, saying our grandchildren will be paying for this is an acknowledgement that this is an insidious situation that cannot be tolerated. We have a duty to ensure that there is something that resembles George Washingtons America, not the corporatecleptocracy it is now. As for the rest of the world, perhaps there are patriots out there who will help us. Patriotism is no longer about nations in this cesspool of globalization and consolidation of power, it is about free people looking out for each other.
I do not feel that there is discrimination as to who is allowed to work and who is not. The work force, in all classes, is made up of a very diverse group with 1 thing in common. They have earned their positions.

Entitlement is a pretty strong word, in the context that he uses it, and has before, I gather he feels we are all ENTITLED to a job and an income. I flatly disagree with this. We are entitled to one thing and that is the opportunity to earn a job and an income. If you do or not, is up to you and not the responsibility of society.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6945|Global Command
Jobs and the availability to work is being manipulated just like the cost of oil.
That's what I mean. Should be illegal. Should be lethal.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7152|Salt Lake City

ATG wrote:

I'm imagining a future where Walmart has a division similar to Blackwater. Where the B of A logo is part of our flag.
Sorry dude, but everything will be sponsored by Carl's Jr. 

If you haven't seen Idiocracy, it something you need to see.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA

ATG wrote:

Jobs and the availability to work is being manipulated just like the cost of oil.
That's what I mean. Should be illegal. Should be lethal.
I do not see that at all. If you are marketable and your skill is in demand you have work. period. What is expected? That companies create jobs for no other reason than to pay someone their "entitlement"?

THe only other factor are unions, they have over valued themselves so much that companies are cutting them loose for wages more in line with the skill they are seeking.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7152|Salt Lake City

lowing wrote:

ATG wrote:

Jobs and the availability to work is being manipulated just like the cost of oil.
That's what I mean. Should be illegal. Should be lethal.
I do not see that at all. If you are marketable and your skill is in demand you have work. period. What is expected? That companies create jobs for no other reason than to pay someone their "entitlement"?
You're still missing the point.  Job skills that are in demand can be lost to outsourcing.  What would you do if your job skill were devalued because a flood of illegals came into the country and created such a glut that, if you managed to keep your job at all, you'd never be able to make a living at it because of oversupply driving down the wages?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

lowing wrote:

ATG wrote:

Jobs and the availability to work is being manipulated just like the cost of oil.
That's what I mean. Should be illegal. Should be lethal.
I do not see that at all. If you are marketable and your skill is in demand you have work. period. What is expected? That companies create jobs for no other reason than to pay someone their "entitlement"?
You're still missing the point.  Job skills that are in demand can be lost to outsourcing.  What would you do if your job skill were devalued because a flood of illegals came into the country and created such a glut that, if you managed to keep your job at all, you'd never be able to make a living at it because of oversupply driving down the wages?
I am sorry, but if you have a job skill that can be taken away from you by an illegal alien who does not speak english and does not even have a SS# let alone a resume' then you need to face a hard reality. You HAVE no job skill to speak of in the first place.

Ya see my point? If your keen compitition is an illegal alien then you might wanna rethink what you consider a marketable skill.

Last edited by lowing (2009-01-16 10:27:52)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6945|Global Command

lowing wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

lowing wrote:


I do not see that at all. If you are marketable and your skill is in demand you have work. period. What is expected? That companies create jobs for no other reason than to pay someone their "entitlement"?
You're still missing the point.  Job skills that are in demand can be lost to outsourcing.  What would you do if your job skill were devalued because a flood of illegals came into the country and created such a glut that, if you managed to keep your job at all, you'd never be able to make a living at it because of oversupply driving down the wages?
I am sorry, but if you have a job skill that can be taken away from you by an illegal alien who does not speak english and does not even have a SS# let alone a resume' then you need to face a hard reality. You HAVE no job skill to speak of in the first place.
facesplat fail dude.
You just don't get it and you never will.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7067|USA

ATG wrote:

lowing wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

You're still missing the point.  Job skills that are in demand can be lost to outsourcing.  What would you do if your job skill were devalued because a flood of illegals came into the country and created such a glut that, if you managed to keep your job at all, you'd never be able to make a living at it because of oversupply driving down the wages?
I am sorry, but if you have a job skill that can be taken away from you by an illegal alien who does not speak english and does not even have a SS# let alone a resume' then you need to face a hard reality. You HAVE no job skill to speak of in the first place.
facesplat fail dude.
You just don't get it and you never will.
I guess I don't ATG, maybe you can tell me where my post fails. Cuz, I have never been beaten out for work by an non-English speaking illegal alien with no work history and no resume' and no SS# and no drivers license etc.....

Last edited by lowing (2009-01-16 10:31:29)

Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6599|Ireland
You're right.

Hate my job, check.

Will probably lose home after paying half my earning each month to the bank for interest, check.

Hate where I live, check.

All savings and retirement wiped out, check.

Can't afford to live where I want or work doing what I like, check.

My reality check is that I am basically working to make money for the bank right now.  I must start thinking more proactively and take advantage of the system and weak laws like the banks did for years.  I need to start researching laws so I can GTFO of Oregon in a few years with a couple dollars in my pocket.  I need 2 acres and a Mule for retirement.

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