BF2S Forums Yay! Blackwater Booted Out!

lowing wrote:

IG-Calibre wrote:

lowing wrote:

I guess the IRA got all of their resources for free huh?

LOLing .. seeking some kind of equivalency with a Terrorist organisation....

Uhhh yeah the IRA was a terrorist organisation, sorry.

exactly my point.. why are you appologising?

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I guess the IRA got all of their resources for free huh?

They fought for a cause - not for riches and splendour. They weren't fighting to put food on the table or for a fancy car. They were fighting for freedom. Mercenaries fight to get paid, otherwise they'd join the regular military. Blackwater could get hired by Zimbabwe or Burma - they have little/no morals and don't fight on principle or for certain values. A money machine whose wheels are oiled by death, conflict and the misery of others. And it seems Iraq has had enough now that they have their sovereignty again.

I don't think blackwater can or would fight for a cause that was against US interests. I might be wrong.

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M.O.A.B wrote:

Actually if groups like Blackwater pull out, security gaps will have to be handled by the military, which means directing more resources to those areas and away from others.

You mean the people who actually should be handling the security would be directed into the job? What horror!!

CameronPoe wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Actually if groups like Blackwater pull out, security gaps will have to be handled by the military, which means directing more resources to those areas and away from others.

You mean the people who actually should be handling the security would be directed into the job? What horror!!

Military personnel should be directed to become personal bodyguards to civilian contractors and buisnessmen?

lowing wrote:

oug wrote:

lowing wrote:

I however have no problem with mercenaries, their motivation is real, money.

You would kill for money then... How fascinating.

Nope I wouldn't, I just don't see any more disgusting than any other stupid reason for war like religion. How come you are not up in arms about killing for religion? Or is this where I am supposed to say, you would kill for religion then...how fascinating.

Umm... no because I wouldn't? Btw if you think religion is a stupid reason to go to war, what would you say if I told you that "religion" actually refers and embodies their "way of life"?

Does the rhetoric sound more familiar now?

CameronPoe wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Military personnel should be directed to become personal bodyguards to civilian contractors and buisnessmen?

You make it sound like Group4 or Securitas. It's a private military company - not Bodyguards'R'Us. 'Private' and 'Military' = Wrong. When's the last time you saw a 'bodyguard' outfit with attack helicopters? Using a bunch of mercenaries to guard political convoys is just a convenient way of laying the blame away from the US military if said bunch decide some civilian 'got too close' and pumped him full of lead.

An an army is a military force, not bodyguards, so who picks up that job then? For somewhere like Iraq you don't just need some heavy who can jump in the way of a bullet, you need trained and armed protection. It is not the military's job to provide protection for civilian convoys with the exception of aid or supplies.

Just because its listed as a PMC doesn't mean it is directed strictly to that area. It also serves as a contractible security company.

Blackwater and other groups like them can deal with situations such as building and convoy security while the actual military deals with insurgency fighters and national security.

M.O.A.B wrote:

An an army is a military force, not bodyguards, so who picks up that job then? For somewhere like Iraq you don't just need some heavy who can jump in the way of a bullet, you need trained and armed protection. It is not the military's job to provide protection for civilian convoys with the exception of aid or supplies.

Just because its listed as a PMC doesn't mean it is directed strictly to that area. It also serves as a contractible security company.

Blackwater and other groups like them can deal with situations such as building and convoy security while the actual military deals with insurgency fighters and national security.

The military should take care of all security. Did they hire Blackwater to deal with WWII Germany? I shouldn't think so. The job of restoring order lies squarely on the shoulders of the military - not some rent-a-police. Blackwater was given immunity from prosecution by the US overlordship of Iraq post-invasion: I don't know many 'security contractors' furnished with such breaks in any fucking country in the world - these guys were an extension of the US army, because the US military wouldn't do duties that should fall on their shoulders themselves. The whole concept of a law-unto-themselves rent-a-police ferrying around 'the new boys in town here to make Iraq a better place full of rainbows and fluffiness' in accordance with their own 'best practices' is repugnant, wrong and pathetic. It was an insult to Iraqis - and that has been borne out in this decision by the Iraqi government.

The only alternative to the US military taking care of security would be a) the Iraqi police or b) the Iraqi military. No others.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-01-29 11:21:01)

M.O.A.B wrote:

The comparison with WWII Germany is stupid, because groups like Blackwater didn't exist back then and mercneary armies that did were not required for the task at hand.

Like it or not, companies like Blackwater have better trained men because they hire former Special Forces Operators. If large amounts of internal security had been handed over to the police or Iraqi security services a few years ago, they wouldn't have been able to do the job. Now? Yes they could, back then? No.

I don't really like groups like Blackwater either because they take men from the actually military forces and therefore downsize the number of specialist soldiers. But you have to think what would have happened if protection of civilian contractors was given to Iraqi police and security services early on when they were ill-equipped and trained.

Mercenary armies 'were not required for the task'. lol. WWII was a helluva lot more shit-infested than the Iraq invasion and yet they got by just fine in the end. The only reason you think they're 'needed' is because the US didn't put up enough troops to carry out their sordid task. There is no way on earth you will ever see me condone hired hands, pretty much unaccountable to the law in the foreign nation in which they operate, in a military invasion situation. Never. It's plain wrong. You just can't see that the US just shirked their responsibility and ended up throwing money at the problem - and the results of which we see today, with Blackwater rightfully facing expulsion.

M.O.A.B wrote:

So after Germany fell there was a mass insurgency that required the immediate close protection of aid convoys and construction crews?

You look at the company from one perspective, killing for money. The parts you don't look at are delivering supplies, aid and maintaining security in situations that don't require the military. They will often be tasked to look after the very aid the money you put in that little tub payed for.

If there was a 'mass insurgency' it would mean that the war was not in fact over, exactly as is the case in Iraq.

Capitalising on killing = plain wrong. Simple as that.

PS They aren't delivering supplies - they're a largely self-governed rent-a-police armed to the teeth protecting convoys that either the US army or indigenous forces should be protecting. Simple as that. And no risk of a court marshal either - just a blemish on your CV maybe. Yay for being a law unto yourself!

The work of policing and war should never be privatised. Immoral, prone to corruption, just so wrong in so many ways.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-01-29 12:00:40)

military which is held accountable to the rules of law =/= private mercenaries fighting on behalf of a business

Braddock wrote:

Don't ever tell me you're a patriot or that anyone owes you any gratitude for what you've for your country because it sounds to me like you were just in it for the pay cheque dude.

mercenaries dont all just do it for the money.  you guys watch too many movies.

.Sup wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Don't ever tell me you're a patriot or that anyone owes you any gratitude for what you've for your country because it sounds to me like you were just in it for the pay cheque dude.

mercenaries dont all just do it for the money.  you guys watch too many movies.

they do it for love

and a sense of bravado