Uzique wrote:
Siiigh, since we're employing this age-old Forum technique of QUOTATION BREAKDOWN = INTELLECTUAL SUPREMACY... let's play.
Actually, its normally used to help structure a debate better. If you want to interpret as such, that is your choice, although an incorrect one.
Soldier and Demoman respectively make up the most versatile and adaptable offensive/defensive classes- both can be turned to either task, both have a decent movement speed in combination with survivability. Both are a Medics best friend, essentially. In a league-match or on any competitive level, a team with only 5 or 6 class choices are usually going to roll with 2-3 Soldiers/Demos. They're the best all-round choice on any map, in any situation, at any task. How would the gameplay be impacted without them? Silly question.
Although some of your definitive statements are obviously incorrect, thanks for actually explaining this.
So wait, you're trying to justify your whine against pipebombs using real-life references to grenades and explosives? Oh my God. Please don't make subtle jibes at my "mental faculty" and my ability when you're going to discredit yourself with this age-old realism argument. Pipebombs are supposed to explode on a direct-hit, it's the way they were designed. If the Demoman had nothing but timed-explosives and static-stickies, they would be confined to nothing but spamming and defensive camping. Isn't that your main complaint against them? You can't have it both ways- if you want them to actually play with some skill and ability, they need the weapons to suit. Remember the TF2 Beta days, or at least back around then? Pipes exploded on player-contact, whether or not they had rebounded off the floor/walls/other players. They are now tweaked to be suitable; if the demoman can actually aim and has the skills to use the pipes as an offensive weapon, then they should be able to.
Isn't the demoman intended to be a defensive class? I never played the TF2 Beta, as well.
How is that OP? Every class in the game has long-range and short-range capabilities... I therefore call that equal footing 'fair', not OP.
Yes, scouts are terribly effective at long range, as are medics, or spies. The point was that demoman are highly adept at both ranges, something not found in other classes.
Do I really have to tell you in length how to defeat a Demoman at close-range with every class? Come on now. Scout is ridiculously easy to kill a demo with - they have literally no counter to the speed and evasion of a well-skilled Scout, not even sticky spamming at the floor does the job. Pyro, how is that hard? Set them alight and do as much close-range/ambush damage as possible, then evade and shotgun until dead. Again, they've got to be pretty good at aiming to hit a properly-ambushing Pyro with a pipebomb. Of course there are one hundred hypothetical situations you could come up with to counter any of these: "What if...", "But when...". The only true solution to this little conundrum is you learning to play the game.
Perhaps you could tell me how to "learn to play the game" rather than mindlessly repeating it from your position of perceived superiority.
As for 'iffy due to lag', that's not an excuse for anything. It's certainly not an inherent flaw or problem with any class, or server. Learn to connect to a server; learn to get a decent Internet connection; learn to Internetz; learn to play etc.etc...
This deserves a simple STFU, because you clearly haven't had to deal with ping above 150. How the fuck do I learn to get a decent internet connection? Do you even fucking think before you write arrogant and moronic statements such as that? Its not available where I live, so I can't.
In honesty, your whole "learn to 'whatever'" is just a pathetic attempt to feel good about yourself. I know it results from insecurity, so perhaps you should begin recognizing why you feel a need to demean others in a pointless and thoughtless manner.
Exactly my point. Your impression of Demomen is derived from public-servers that play PL maps and other spamfests. Do you hate Engi's too because they choke-up the cart? Do you hate Snipers because they make the first-stage of Attacking on Goldrush hard? . Demomen in scrims, or in fact on any decently-played CP map, play an entirely different role than the one they serve in public-PL servers, spamming the cart with stickies and so on. It's a different level of skill; one can criticize and complain about anything when it is being played or done in a noobish fashion. Again, learn to play, or at least play the game properly. That's my best advice here.
Based on this conclusion, your statements apply to pros/matches, while mine apply to normal play. Thus, I can't comment on the overpowered nature of Demomen in pro play, and you can't pretend Demomen are a balanced class that requires more skill than others, regardless of the setting. That seems like a satisfactory conclusion. Additionally, please don't pretend how you play the game is the proper way to play it. That is again arrogant, and more importantly, an entirely subjective statement with little actual validity.
For the record, I don't hate Engineers on those maps, since taking down the sentry guns requires teamwork, which is the purpose of the game, and snipers are easily neutralized by spies, countersniping, and pyro/medics rushing the Blu spawn.
Lol @ Valve Forums and "many other players". Groups of players will always whine about everything. As for the Valve Forums... aren't they basically an Agony Aunt Internet column or something? I very rarely see anything of worth on the Valve forums, or anything that is genuinely well-informed. Plus, you can never check the integrity or reliability of the people that post there, try checking the league-forums that are actually frequented by real, active and skilled players. That gives you a much better idea of what is right and what is wrong with TF2. The game isn't flawless, but Demomen are not widely regarded as being "definitely OP". Basing your opinion or finding 'back-up' on the Valve Forums is a clear indication of naivety, learn-to-play syndrome, and learn-to-Valve disability.
This is pointless to respond to, because you are assuming pros are the only players who deserve to comment about a game. That is laughably ignorant.
Stop pointlessly convoluting things and stating the obvious. You can phrase it as elaborately as you wish, but you're not furthering any argument by stating "points are accumulated through killing others or assisting in doing so". No wai? Also, your basic assumption is hideously wrong. When I kill another player, it gauges player skill, not class strength. The classes are all fairly balanced and in order; of course 'x' class will beat 'y' class in certain situations, specifically when you play up against their strength. A sniper is going to beat a heavy at long-range, a pyro is going to beat a spy when meeting face-to-face in a narrow corridor. You get my point. You cannot ascertain how good or balanced a class is based on one-on-one encounters in a public server. Ridiculous. Learn to play.
If someone puts a similar amount of effort to playing with each class, and averages it out over a wide variety of playing scenarios, then they will get a reasonable view of the difficulty it takes to score points with each one. Certain classes require a lot less trying and a lot less skill than others, and they are consequently more powerful than the others. I started playing with the Scout and Soldier, and got owned repeatedly. I switched to Heavy and Demoman, and I suddenly start scoring many points. I didn't suddenly gain more skill. I moved to more powerful classes.
I'm not going to put thought into my posts until you put actual skill and capability into your gameplay and reasoning. Otherwise my thought and real opinion is wasted on a moron.
I'm not sure to start with this, primarily because the disagreement is over whether or not I am putting skill and capability in my gameplay and reasoning. Since there are differing opinions, you should be trying to convince me why you are right, and that isn't accomplished by poorly thought out and excessively arrogant posts. I'll consider your points, but not if you let your obvious superiority complex pervade the discussion. Try being reasonable and convincing, rather than stating "l2pnub" every sentence, and perhaps something productive will happen.
