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I'm not saying they can't do it, I'm saying the letter is BS, based on statements therein which are clearly bogus.FEOS wrote:
But you've questioned their ability to do exactly what they did.
I have no doubt the letter was bogus. Who knows, the description of the decision-making process might be accurate, but any truth there is obviated by the rest of the nonsense.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'm not saying they can't do it, I'm saying the letter is BS, based on statements therein which are clearly bogus.FEOS wrote:
But you've questioned their ability to do exactly what they did.
I'm saying whoever wrote the letter watched some Fox and cobbled it together.
Oh well that proves it then.FEOS wrote:
The sniper tactics described synch with other accounts I have seen in the media
It would be inappropriate to comment on things I've seen that aren't in open press, wouldn't it?Dilbert_X wrote:
Oh well that proves it then.FEOS wrote:
The sniper tactics described synch with other accounts I have seen in the media
Still waiting to hear where I can buy a flaxen sabot 0.308Win. wadcutter.
Fine, prove it exists then, I've never heard of it.FEOS wrote:
Just because you can't buy it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
http://www.reloadammo.com/sabot.htmDilbert_X wrote:
Fine, prove it exists then, I've never heard of it.FEOS wrote:
Just because you can't buy it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
There are many parts of that letter that are bogus. That does not mean that the whole thing is. The bottom line is that nobody without a high-level clearance will know (for a long time) what really happened.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'm not saying it couldn't have been done, at 30m it could have been done with a pistol, rifle easy peasy.
I'm saying THIS ACCOUNT of it is bogus based on the various obvious flaws.
The anti-obama blather pretty much gives it away.
You've never heard of a .22 wadcutter? Really?Dilbert_X wrote:
I know a bit about reloading, but thank you.
Never heard of a .22 wadcutter either.
Again, I'm not saying the whole thing is bogus, just the bits I have some knowledge of.
So now you're up in arms about the material making the sabot as opposed to the sabot actually existing?Dilbert_X wrote:
Wadcutters are available for many calibres, the only .22 wadcutter I've ever heard of is for airguns.
Saboting .308 down to .22 and then using a wadcutter would be pretty much self-defeating, doubly so for taking out a window.
Still waiting for a link for a flaxen sabot wadcutter in 0.308Win, and some explanation of why the SEALs would choose to use one to knock out a window, instead of the many more sensible options they would have available to them.
The only shred of truth seems to be what everyone already knows, that three pirates were shot dead.
The rest is BS.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-05-04 04:17:13)
We're deviating from the OP a bit, so before we go off on a tangent, I'd like to say that your second sentence is likely spot on.Dilbert_X wrote:
Its nothing to do with the material, or sabots existing.
It about this account being a mishmash of fact, half-fact and made up BS.
If you're talking about a paper target, you're right. If you're talking about something more substantial than a paper target, you're missing some key facts. 1) Plexiglass is a lot more substantial than paper 2) the .22 wadcutter is basically a small cylinder of unjacketed lead 3) said cylinder will hit hard plexiglass and deform greatly, dispersing its energy into the target 4) said energy is much higher than say a .223 round, as .22 is propelled by a .308 powder charge 5) high energy dispersed over a larger than .22 area (due to deformation and associated energy transfer to plexiglass) breaks plexiglass while depleting much of the energy from the round (through transference into plexiglass) 6) window is taken out with minimal intrusion into interiorDilbert_X wrote:
Wadcutters actually just tend to punch a neat hole through things rather than spread out and transfer lots of energy.
If you're trying to eliminate unknown/unknowable deflections or continuation of the round into the interior of the boat, neither of those options is sensible, as you're guaranteeing that you'll be putting high-energy lead/lead fragments into a confined space--with a hostage you're trying to save. Not a good combination.Dilbert_X wrote:
A sensible option might be to use a soft-nose .308 round, or a 12 bore sabot slug, either would probably be overkill and potentially dangerous, arguable whether over or under would be worse.
I doubt a plexiglass window would deflect a 0.308 round significantly, not enough to be worth worrying about if the target is less than a metre behind, even at close range before the bullet is fully stable.
And just what do you think it would do against a sheet of plexiglass? If it doesn't disintegrate against steel, it's not going to disintegrate against plexiglass, which will deform and absorb much of the energy, thus encouraging expansion/deformation of the round, vice disintegration.Dilbert_X wrote:
My experience is wadcutters tend not to expand, unless they hit a piece of steel exactly head on.
I'm going to go with the guys who do this for a living, if that's OK with you.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what would happen with a .22 hitting plexiglass or polycarb, lamianted or otherwsie, but I'm pretty sure it would be unpredictable and variable.
Yes, it's off-topic, but your assertion that it is "only vaguely based on fact" isn't even vaguely based on fact.Dilbert_X wrote:
Anyway, its off-topic but still think at least that part of it is only vaguely based on fact.
Lets see a real source then, not some half-baked BS.FEOS wrote:
I'm going to go with the guys who do this for a living, if that's OK with you.
If SEALs published their tactics, I would. But they don't. You can search for it as readily as I can.Dilbert_X wrote:
Lets see a real source then, not some half-baked BS.FEOS wrote:
I'm going to go with the guys who do this for a living, if that's OK with you.
As I said, I can see a sub-calibre sabot projectile probably does have merit for this application, would like to see the real data.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-05-08 03:32:15)
If you think that's their tactics, you're smoking something special.Dilbert_X wrote:
http://www.torrentz.com/0bb4a3d8e22198fdd1700a78837cd9a6627aa470
http://www.btmon.com/Other/E-books/Us_N … rrent.html
As I'm already down one hard drive I'll let someone else download them.
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