Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5994

After reading this article I wonder to myself. The title is

"Marijuana: Zogby Poll Shows Majority Support for Taxing and Regulating Marijuana on the West Coast, Support Climbing Nationwide"
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/573 … ty_support

Now the article claims that support for pot legalization is so high the majority of Americans support it. I wondered to myself given the bad side of pot even if the people want it should it not be allowed?

Think about this if one day a poll came out saying that 95% of all Americans want the government to produce and distribute injectable heroin to preschoolers should the government do it? Now heroin is bad there is no good side to it. So if the people want to be ruined by the evils of heroin to children should they be given the opportunity or should the government say "No we're not giving out heroin"?

If 51% of Americans said Yes to heroin for kids would it make it right? What if the government made a wonder drug that had no side effects what so ever and made everyone 5 times healthier by just taking it once. Then the people have 0 support for it should the government force people to ingest it or spill it into the drinking water?

In economic terms the people don't want to bailout the largest bank in the country but if the government knows that the bank would fail and cause a depression if not bailed out should the government go ahead and bailout the bank anyway?

If Hitler came back from the grave and won an election with 51% of the vote do you think members of the military and government have the right to refuse the election and not seat him as leader? What if he had won 85%? Mind you it's Hitler.

So in short do you think that the majority of people have the right to ruin their lives and country or do you think the government have the supreme right to do what is best even if the people don't want it?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7115|67.222.138.85
How can you demonstrate that what the people want isn't best?

From the perspective of what you might consider reasonable, wouldn't it be a good idea to kill off the children of a society that voted to distribute drugs to their children?

You need to demonstrate a "bad idea" that would be popular and reinforces itself, guarding against a an uprising of sanity.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5994

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

How can you demonstrate that what the people want isn't best?

From the perspective of what you might consider reasonable, wouldn't it be a good idea to kill off the children of a society that voted to distribute drugs to their children?

You need to demonstrate a "bad idea" that would be popular and reinforces itself, guarding against a an uprising of sanity.
I'm not going to get into a debate with you on reason or sanity. Because well anything could be justified either way and it really doesn't matter if the said action was reasonable but if t worked and was done.

Now without side stepping the question. Would it be better to do what the people think is best even when it is not or do what is actually best but not what the people want?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7115|67.222.138.85
Dude, this "answer the question on my terms" crap is getting old. There are problems with the question you pose that make it impossible to answer in any way that makes sense.

You have no definition for "best". Using the English definition, no shit it's better, it's the superlative action. If you manage to actually irrefutably define best in a specific situation, even a theoretical one, then you can ask the question. Then if you can "demonstrate that what the people want isn't best", your question becomes not just valid but actually interesting.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5994

Discussion on what is reasonable and what isn't is older then anything you can ever encounter in life. It's not interesting debating what is reasonable and what isn't, it's just depressingly boring and makes me glad I was born in ancient Greece.

Any sane person would say that giving heroin to kids, electing Hitler, a economic depression, and not giving a super medicine would be stupid things to do. Now I'm giving context to the discussion not just posting same bland one sentence question and praying Socrates is going to log in and answer it.

It is more interesting to give context to discussions then bland short answers. But I guess it was interesting enough that you decided to come in and try to take it apart.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6909|so randum

Macbeth wrote:

Discussion on what is reasonable and what isn't is older then anything you can ever encounter in life. It's not interesting debating what is reasonable and what isn't, it's just depressingly boring and makes me glad I was born in ancient Greece.

Any sane person would say that giving heroin to kids, electing Hitler, a economic depression, and not giving a super medicine would be stupid things to do. Now I'm giving context to the discussion not just posting same bland one sentence question and praying Socrates is going to log in and answer it.

It is more interesting to give context to discussions then bland short answers. But I guess it was interesting enough that you decided to come in and try to take it apart.
?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6561|what

lol'd ancient Greece.

But more taxes = good for the govt.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5994

FatherTed wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Discussion on what is reasonable and what isn't is older then anything you can ever encounter in life. It's not interesting debating what is reasonable and what isn't, it's just depressingly boring and makes me glad I was born in ancient Greece.

Any sane person would say that giving heroin to kids, electing Hitler, a economic depression, and not giving a super medicine would be stupid things to do. Now I'm giving context to the discussion not just posting same bland one sentence question and praying Socrates is going to log in and answer it.

It is more interesting to give context to discussions then bland short answers. But I guess it was interesting enough that you decided to come in and try to take it apart.
?
Typo was not born in ancient Greece.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6561|what

Macbeth wrote:

Typo was not born in ancient Greece.
ot: what did you mean to say?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5994

AussieReaper wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Typo was not born in ancient Greece.
ot: what did you mean to say?
Discussion on what is reasonable and what isn't is older then anything you can ever encounter in life. It's not interesting debating what is reasonable and what isn't, it's just depressingly boring and makes me glad I wasn't born in ancient Greece.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7115|67.222.138.85
I guess it's more interesting if you're easily amused by the rhetorical equivalent of shiny objects. Frankly I prefer substance to my style, I would rather read a challenging sentence fragment than two pages of clutter, confusing the basic premise or concealing flaws in the foundation.

You cast aside arguably the only topic worthy of discussion.

Well, since you didn't really give me anything to respond to on topic, I guess I did take it apart. Which is a shame, because you were close to a valid question.

In any case points for initiative, it's more than can be said for most.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5994

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I guess it's more interesting if you're easily amused by the rhetorical equivalent of shiny objects. Frankly I prefer substance to my style, I would rather read a challenging sentence fragment than two pages of clutter, confusing the basic premise or concealing flaws in the foundation.

You cast aside arguably the only topic worthy of discussion.

Well, since you didn't really give me anything to respond to on topic, I guess I did take it apart. Which is a shame, because you were close to a valid question.

In any case points for initiative, it's more than can be said for most.
Fine. "If the child is father to the man how is the man father to the child?" That should keep you amused for a few days. Back on subject.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6561|what

Macbeth wrote:

If 51% of Americans said Yes to heroin for kids would it make it right? What if the government made a wonder drug that had no side effects what so ever and made everyone 5 times healthier by just taking it once. Then the people have 0 support for it should the government force people to ingest it or spill it into the drinking water?
Before they do spill it into the drinking water, they would first run a positive pr campaign telling the public how great the drug is. They would pay for these advertisements using tax payer money.

The same thing happened when they introduced fluoride into the drinking water, to improve your teeth. There were a lot of people against it. The govt. ran some pr campaigns, had doctors in ads telling you how great fluoride is. In same Australian ads it was a teacher, telling students how great fluoride is during a tv commercial.

They then proceeded to pour it into your drinking water, iirc the British don't have fluoridated water, hence the popular belief they all have bad teeth.

Last edited by AussieReaper (2009-05-06 19:38:53)

https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
BVC
Member
+325|7104
Thats one hell of an emotive false dilemma, Macbeth.

To sum it up, over half the people on the east coast want marijuana legalised and Macbeth doesn't like that, therefore marijuana = heroin = econimic depression = hitler.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7123|US

Macbeth wrote:

Think about this if one day a poll came out saying that 95% of all Americans want the government to produce and distribute injectable heroin to preschoolers should the government do it? Now heroin is bad there is no good side to it. So if the people want to be ruined by the evils of heroin to children should they be given the opportunity or should the government say "No we're not giving out heroin"?
Strawman.
This is about giving people the CHOICE (and undercutting gang funding).  Your scenario is very different than what is being proposed.

To answer you hypotheticals:
1. Forcing children to take heroin would be wrong (freedom of choice).
2. Forcing people to take a wonderdrug by decieving them would be wrong.  Mandating it...could go either way (need to balance public health and private interests)
3. If Hitler was elected (assuming the proper election procedures were followed and he is not issuing illegal orders), the military would be legally obligated to follow his orders.  It's not a good situation, but until the Commander in Chief issues an illegal order, the military is duty-bound to follow his orders.  To do otherwise would invite a military coup against the civilian government.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7058

I'm a little confused. Macbeth posted something about buying ecstasy a week or two ago, but he's against the legalisation of weed? Or are you just played devils advocate?
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7029|London, England
Think about this if one day a poll came out saying that 95% of all Americans want the government to produce and distribute injectable heroin to preschoolers should the government do it? Now heroin is bad there is no good side to it. So if the people want to be ruined by the evils of heroin to children should they be given the opportunity or should the government say "No we're not giving out heroin"?
Shut up. God, I know you're trying to make a decent topic here but seriously, for fuck sake dude


Anyway it's funny how people always talk crap about democracy, but only when it suits them. Like how when California recently voted against Gay marriage, all the right wingers were like "the people have spoken" but when it comes to things like Weed, it's all about "Government knowing best" - I'm sure there's examples out there for the Left too.

Two Greek terms describes America: Democracy, Hypocrisy
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6928|Πάϊ

Mekstizzle wrote:

Two Greek terms describes America: DemoPlutocracy, Hypocrisy


btw for the OP: Ironically the answer to the title's question lies within all that boring stuff the Greeks were talking about when setting up the governing system of direct democracy.
ƒ³
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7093|United States of America
No one ever sees the problems with taxing it, though.
1) To get people to buy from the taxable places, you need to undersell the current dealers so people will actually pay less
2) People can (and do) already grow Mary Jane easier than they could brew alchohol back in the day
3) If it is cheaper to grow it by onesself than to purchase it, people will do that.
4) To make sure people are legally buying from taxable sources, you would have to enforce laws against self-production and impose some harsh penalties to discourage it.
5) Long story short, there are certain aspects of the current laws you (as a government) would need to enforce to make sure you're not losing money on this whole legalization spiel.
BVC
Member
+325|7104
Plenty of people will grow it, but for some (eg. those in apartments) growing it won't be an option, thus the only option will be to buy it.  Plus theres the convenience factor of being able to get quality stuff without having to maintain a controlled growing environment etc.  Even in the face of home grown marijuana, there will still be retail sales to tax.

Last edited by Pubic (2009-05-07 14:40:40)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6814|North Carolina
What is best is subjective.  What is most practical is also subjective but easier to define.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6819|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

What is best is subjective.  What is most practical is also subjective but easier to define.
^This.

And see sig.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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