BF2S Forums Appeasement?

ghettoperson wrote:

lowing wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

And given that Islam is 1300 years old or so, technically speaking they're 700 years ahead of the Christians.

hold on slick, I asked for proof that my statement is not correct. so how about it?

the age of Islam is not the topic of my statement that you say is wrong. So if I am wrong prove it. Because I can list examples as to where I am right.

I can quote posts of yours all day that would prove my thesis that all Americans are racist bigots. It doesn't mean it's true, but selective research would show that.

I figured Ted did a pretty good job providing some reasons as to why it's not, just because you say we live in the here and now, doesn't mean it's less of a valid point.

Wait a sec.


You challenged my post about Islam. So finish it, show me where my statement is not true. If you can not then your argument is dead.

AFTER THAT if you want to post about another religion, please do so and I will give you my opinion based on FACT about whichever one you choose, and which ever time period you choose. But please, one at a time.

Right now, we are in the here and now, and you challenged my belief  that it is FACT, that Islam is intolerant toward gays, women and infidels.

Ok GO!. Show me where I am wrong. Please remember that 1928 and the Catholic Church has nothing to do with my statement.

I never claimed Islam was tolerant or intolerant of homosexuals. I just disputed what you said about it being "a violent, intolerant, destructive religion whose ideology of superiority over gays, women, and non-Muslims". As we've said time and time again, it is the minority who are violent extremists.

Ted pointed out that until very recently, in Western society people who were not white, people who were homosexual, and women all had far less rights than white, straight men. He also noted, that despite being a Western religion, Catholicism still does not grant homosexuals the same rights, and women still cannot become priests.

Given that Christianity and Western society had 2000 years to evolve into a "civilised" religion, the fact that 40 years ago blacks did not have the same rights as whites is a legitimate point.

FatherTed wrote:

the catholic church doesn't allow gays the same rights
women didn't have the same rights as men in the UK until 1928
blacks didn't have the same rights as white in the USA until early 1970's

What you keep failing to grasp is this; Man is the problem, not a religion.

I would go even further to say it is not religion, it is man's interpretation of it.  We have recently had it proven that Islam does not have a monopoly on the religiously zealous and extreme.  The problem is that there are parts of the Korran which make it very easy to focus on violent and extremist acts while still giving a semi-official blessing.  There are parts of the Bible like that too, but I think the Korran is more blantent about it (maybe drawing from the times when it was put together).

It is not just the religion of Islam that is the serious problem.  It is when you mix it with the mindset of the Middle East (who have been cultually buried in the Dark Ages with seriously harsh punishments and little regard for human life) as well as the political situation (Isreal v. Palastine, Iran v. US, leftover tensions from the proxy actions from the Cold War), it gives a lot of places where unscrupulous men can use Islam as a lever to condition groups of people into believing what they want and to take violent actions under the blanket approval of the Korran.

Also, remember that Islam has been viewed with suspicion by the west ever since the Crusades, just as the Jews were.

The other problem is that quite a few of the religious leaders do not speak out against the extremists in their faith, which (to the West) is tantamount to giving de-facto approval.

ghettoperson wrote:

I never claimed Islam was tolerant or intolerant of homosexuals. I just disputed what you said about it being "a violent, intolerant, destructive religion whose ideology of superiority over gays, women, and non-Muslims". As we've said time and time again, it is the minority who are violent extremists.

Ted pointed out that until very recently, in Western society people who were not white, people who were homosexual, and women all had far less rights than white, straight men. He also noted, that despite being a Western religion, Catholicism still does not grant homosexuals the same rights, and women still cannot become priests.

Given that Christianity and Western society had 2000 years to evolve into a "civilised" religion, the fact that 40 years ago blacks did not have the same rights as whites is a legitimate point.

SO you maintain that Islam is NOT violent, or intolerant of gays or infidels and that it does not hold women as less then men? Proof please

Again, focus on my statement try and tell me I am wrong and offer up so proof to show it. Other religions and their practices are not in play regarding my statement. Those are other topics which I will gladly chime in on after we finish this one.

Last edited by lowing (2009-06-05 13:54:04)

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

The Cathoilic Church does not punish homosexuality, all they do is project a message it is wrong. The Church does not have the power to bestow or remove rights.

notice how you give dates that are past tense with your other 2 examples. We live in the here and now.

So everywhere in the world should be at the same level as each other? thats not how it works. enviromental determinism, read up on it.

Nope, but since we live in the here and now, and what happens here and now affects the here and now, and my statement was focused on the here and now I kinda using the here and now as relevant to the topic, and not so much focusing on shit dating back 50 years or the ever popular Crusades argument.

say here and now one more time?

'living in the past' isn't what im getting at. you need a frame of reference for your opinions, making them on the instant face value tends to give you a skewed picture.

the point i was making wasn't that islam doesn't do bad shit, but rather that we are all capable of it.

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

So everywhere in the world should be at the same level as each other? thats not how it works. enviromental determinism, read up on it.

Nope, but since we live in the here and now, and what happens here and now affects the here and now, and my statement was focused on the here and now I kinda using the here and now as relevant to the topic, and not so much focusing on shit dating back 50 years or the ever popular Crusades argument.

say here and now one more time?

'living in the past' isn't what im getting at. you need a frame of reference for your opinions, making them on the instant face value tends to give you a skewed picture.

the point i was making wasn't that islam doesn't do bad shit, but rather that we are all capable of it.

Did you really think I did not know that?

The OP was direct challenge to me and my opinions about Islam, so this is the topic of discussion. My view of Islam as a violent intolerant religion has been challenged by some. I have asked for proof that I was wrong in my opinion and that, in fact, Islam is a peaceful tolerant, equality driven religion. That person disappeared, I can not help that.

If you want to discuss other topics like womens rights, civil rights, the Crusades, and flaws in other religions I am willing to do so. Mentioning these other issues however, does NOT disprove my opinion about Islam. It only proves it hasn't been only Islam.

and since I am against any religious bullshit, I remain consistent. Only difference now is Islam has taken their violence and intolerance outside their Mosques and into streets that do not belong to them, in countries they are not from.

FatherTed wrote:

the bit that was challenged was you saying that 'Islam as a violent intolerant religion' was a fact.

well then by all means show me where Islam now or ever has been a religion of Peace and tolerance...Should be simple I guess

Macbeth wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

the bit that was challenged was you saying that 'Islam as a violent intolerant religion' was a fact.

well then by all means show me where Islam now or ever has been a religion of Peace and tolerance...Should be simple I guess

Islamic Golden Age?

Nope, not if you were not Muslim.  Violence and intolerance still prevailed

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

the bit that was challenged was you saying that 'Islam as a violent intolerant religion' was a fact.

well then by all means show me where Islam now or ever has been a religion of Peace and tolerance...Should be simple I guess

Turkey.

Bosnia? lol

Australia, lol.

FatherTed wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Bosnia? lol

No lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

yeah i know...

I knew that. Just for anyone else that didn't. Godspeed Ted.

Indonesia wat.