Pages: 1

 

2009-07-15 00:56:37
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6962
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8149464.stm

A group of Israeli soldiers have manned up to admit to, among other things, the following:

• Rules of engagement were either unclear or encouraged soldiers to do their utmost to protect their own lives whether or not Palestinian civilians were harmed.

• Civilians were used as human shields, entering buildings ahead of soldiers.

• Large swathes of homes and buildings were demolished. Testimony mentioned a policy referred to as "the day after", whereby areas near the border were razed to make future military operations easier.

• There was incidents of vandalism of property of Palestinians.

• Soldiers fired at water tanks because they were bored, at a time of severe water shortages for Gazans.

• White phosphorus was used in civilian areas in a way some soldiers saw as gratuitous and reckless.

I'd personally like to commend them for manning up and hopefully this will have an impact on how the Israeli military conducts itself in future (I won't hold my breath though). And the myth of Palestinians being the only 'human shield' merchants has at last been blown open.

Could there be human rights violations / war crimes prosecutions on the back of the testimony of this group (if of course they have the further balls to actually expose who they are)?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-07-15 00:59:33)

2009-07-15 01:02:46
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6731|New Haven, CT
To answer the final question, yes, there could be. Will there be? No. As a note, the following are weak:

• White phosphorus was used in civilian areas in a way some soldiers saw as gratuitous and reckless.

• Rules of engagement were either unclear or encouraged soldiers to do their utmost to protect their own lives whether or not Palestinian civilians were harmed.

The former is subjective; every person has a different definition of gratuitous and reckless. The latter makes sense, since friendly soldiers' lives are more important than enemy civilian lives in a time of war.
2009-07-15 01:04:00
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7008|132 and Bush

True.. but it takes a special kind of asshole to use their own as human shields for the sole purpose of gaining support from the international community. Actually human shields doesn't quite fit the definition in the Palestinian case.. more like needless human sacrifice.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-07-15 02:32:20
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6962

Kmarion wrote:

True.. but it takes a special kind of asshole to use their own as human shields for the sole purpose of gaining support from the international community. Actually human shields doesn't quite fit the definition in the Palestinian case.. more like needless human sacrifice.
A true guerrilla should recede unnoticed into the undergrowth/populace and never ever fire from that location. The BBC article notes that an Arab Human Rights group recognise that Hamas firing rockets at civilians in southern Israel is criminal, which is a welcome seldom seen example of balance.
2009-07-15 02:49:48
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7170|d
wow the idf is full of shit, tell me something i didn't know.
2009-07-15 03:08:16
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7181|Noizyland

Talking of using civillians as human shields - that's what terrorists like Hamas do. They live among civillians because they know that:

A) It's more difficult to get to terrorists if you're worried about harming civillians.
B) If civillians are harmed by the other side terrorists can use this as examples to recruit more people to heir cause.
C) If one side in a conflict is seen as harming civillians they will loose support from the international community.

As Kmarion said it takes a certain kind of arsehole to do this to your own people.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
2009-07-15 03:14:36
KuSTaV
noice
+947|6918|Gold Coast

Ty wrote:

Talking of using civillians as human shields - that's what terrorists like Hamas do. They live among civillians because they know that:

A) It's more difficult to get to terrorists if you're worried about harming civillians.
B) If civillians are harmed by the other side terrorists can use this as examples to recruit more people to heir cause.
C) If one side in a conflict is seen as harming civillians they will loose support from the international community.

As Kmarion said it takes a certain kind of arsehole to do this to your own people.
So the IDF says fuck it and goes in anyway.....

I dont really know how else they're supposed to do it. I mean, in a conflict like this, there are almost always going to be civilian casualties because its such a densely populated area anyway.
noice                                                                                                        https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/awsmsanta.png
2009-07-15 03:56:11
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6731|New Haven, CT

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

True.. but it takes a special kind of asshole to use their own as human shields for the sole purpose of gaining support from the international community. Actually human shields doesn't quite fit the definition in the Palestinian case.. more like needless human sacrifice.
A true guerrilla should recede unnoticed into the undergrowth/populace and never ever fire from that location. The BBC article notes that an Arab Human Rights group recognise that Hamas firing rockets at civilians in southern Israel is criminal, which is a welcome seldom seen example of balance.
Which makes the militants less of guerrillas fighting a legitimate cause and more of selfish extremists. As always, I do think ultimate responsibility for civilian casualties is theirs. It isn't really fair to force Israel to restrain a response because their enemies are cowards and selfish buffoons. There is some legitimate beef with the testimony of the Israeli soldiers, but some of it is weak, as I noted, some of it a natural result of urban warfare against an enemy such as Hamas, and overall, not enough to cause international condemnation of the Israelis.
2009-07-15 05:03:23
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6962

nukchebi0 wrote:

Which makes the militants less of guerrillas fighting a legitimate cause and more of selfish extremists. As always, I do think ultimate responsibility for civilian casualties is theirs. It isn't really fair to force Israel to restrain a response because their enemies are cowards and selfish buffoons. There is some legitimate beef with the testimony of the Israeli soldiers, but some of it is weak, as I noted, some of it a natural result of urban warfare against an enemy such as Hamas, and overall, not enough to cause international condemnation of the Israelis.
Using Palestinians as human shields is a weak beef (the nature of urban warfare)? You can stop criticising Hamas if that is your position.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-07-15 08:26:10)

2009-07-15 08:22:21
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6697|Éire
Fair play to these soldiers for being brave enough to speak their minds, even in the knowledge that many on their own side will vilify them for doing so. I saw a documentary on RTÉ2 a while back about women in the Israeli army and one girl was basically ostracized by her unit for reported soldiers who had looted Korans and other items during a raid, it seems they tend to close ranks and push out the "troublemaker" n most situations.

As for how this story will affect people's opinions... it won't. Palestinian supporters have long argued that this has been going on for years while hardcore Israeli supporters will rubbish the claims being made by these soldiers altogether, moderate Israeli supporters would probably argue that 25 soldiers have no statistical significance in the wider scheme of things.
2009-07-15 09:42:28
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6936|Global Command
Well, I must say...the white Flag incidents and these soldiers revelations are troubling.


The world pretty much sucks atm.
2009-07-15 10:16:23
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7170|d

ATG wrote:

Well, I must say...the white Flag incidents and these soldiers revelations are troubling.


The world pretty much sucks atm.
white flag incident ?
2009-07-15 13:20:15
rammunition
Fully Loaded
+143|6268
its funny how the Israeli's have been branding abuse as "propaganda" from "paliwood" despite evidence of such cases.

also its ok for them to question the abuse and massacres they commit, disputing numbers and crimes  yet question the holocaust the world world goes up in flames.


Ty wrote:

Talking of using civillians as human shields - that's what terrorists like Hamas do. They live among civillians because they know that:

A) It's more difficult to get to terrorists if you're worried about harming civillians.
B) If civillians are harmed by the other side terrorists can use this as examples to recruit more people to heir cause.
C) If one side in a conflict is seen as harming civillians they will loose support from the international community.

As Kmarion said it takes a certain kind of arsehole to do this to your own people.
1.) gaza is one of them most densely populated places on the planet, so the human shield card is easy to use and blame all civilian deaths on hamas.

2.) not just terrorists, for example when America was attacked on 9/11 many people joined the us forces to take part in the "war on terror". Its just a natural reaction for people to take up arms for revenge.

3.) both hamas and israeli have been criticized for attacking/killing civilians by human rights groups
2009-07-15 17:46:42
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6818|'Murka

For some of the claims--if they are accurate--criminal penalties should be applied. Proving the accuracy of these claims is the tough part. But that's the beauty of civilized society: innocent until proven guilty...even if the allegations are horrible.

In fact, the only one that appears to be clearly illegal is the human shields allegation.

For the other claims Cam posted...war is hell. Things suck. But they aren't illegal just because they suck and are nearly incomprehensible to those of us snug in our homes, far from the battlefield.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-07-15 20:24:50
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7008|132 and Bush

Braddock wrote:

Fair play to these soldiers for being brave enough to speak their minds, even in the knowledge that many on their own side will vilify them for doing so. I saw a documentary on RTÉ2 a while back about women in the Israeli army and one girl was basically ostracized by her unit for reported soldiers who had looted Korans and other items during a raid, it seems they tend to close ranks and push out the "troublemaker" n most situations.

As for how this story will affect people's opinions... it won't. Palestinian supporters have long argued that this has been going on for years while hardcore Israeli supporters will rubbish the claims being made by these soldiers altogether, moderate Israeli supporters would probably argue that 25 soldiers have no statistical significance in the wider scheme of things.
Actually these things do affect my opinion. Bring some corroborating evidence into the mix and you've got a solid case for war crimes. The international community should take notice. The United States is making an effort right now to clean up how we conduct ourselves in war. The same should be expected of our allies. If true I'm all for cutting off the loans and would even consider sanctions.

Right now the IDF is claiming hearsay.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-07-16 00:31:03
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6731|New Haven, CT

CameronPoe wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Which makes the militants less of guerrillas fighting a legitimate cause and more of selfish extremists. As always, I do think ultimate responsibility for civilian casualties is theirs. It isn't really fair to force Israel to restrain a response because their enemies are cowards and selfish buffoons. There is some legitimate beef with the testimony of the Israeli soldiers, but some of it is weak, as I noted, some of it a natural result of urban warfare against an enemy such as Hamas, and overall, not enough to cause international condemnation of the Israelis.
Using Palestinians as human shields is a weak beef (the nature of urban warfare)? You can stop criticising Hamas if that is your position.
I said some allegations are a legitimate beef, and some are weak; I never stated explicitly that the human shields allegation was weak. Conversely, the human shields allegation is the most legitimate, whereas the two mentioned in my initial response were both weak.

 

Pages: 1

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard