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2009-09-20 19:39:47
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7005|132 and Bush

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

ANYONE can go to college in this country you idiot. There's nothing elitist about it unless you're crying because you couldn't get into an Ivy League school
John, you're really digging yourself into a hole here.  Anytime you make such sweeping assumptions about opportunity, reality will find a way to contradict you.
Absolutely not. Work hard and earn a scholarship. If you can't do that, join the military and get the GI Bill. If you don't want to do that you can join Americorps or the Peace Corps and get money that way. As a last resort you can take out loans. Or, you can do what millions of Americans have done over the years: Work while going to school to pay for tuition. I know that last one is a real brain zinger.

There are a million different ways to pay for college and unless we're talking MIT there really isn't a whole lot of difference between a state school and a private college except the name on the diploma. You could work hard and get the same or better education at Ohio State as you could at Harvard. It's all about effort and priorities.
Good points.

My Parents had jack crap growing up. This is going to sound obnoxious but there is a point, you should see where they live and what they have now. My Dad did it working his way through school with some help from the Navy. I've personally seen these exact situations.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-09-20 20:00:31
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6953|San Diego, CA, USA

Macbeth wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Make college free or almost free. An elitist education system is the root of most problems today.
ANYONE can go to college in this country you idiot. There's nothing elitist about it unless you're crying because you couldn't get into an Ivy League school
But not everyone can afford it you idiot. That's what she means when she says it's elitist, in the fact that only the rich could pay for it.
I went 3 years in Community College and then transferred to a 4-year University for 3 more years all while working 40/hours a week with ZERO government help to get my degree.

Apparently people who work while going to school don't quality for any of these programs.

Why should someone who can't afford to go to school not do what I did?  I mean community college to me should be subsidized (basically like grade 13 and 14), so I support you there, but college should not be free.
2009-09-20 20:03:06
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

Harmor wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


ANYONE can go to college in this country you idiot. There's nothing elitist about it unless you're crying because you couldn't get into an Ivy League school
But not everyone can afford it you idiot. That's what she means when she says it's elitist, in the fact that only the rich could pay for it.
I went 3 years in Community College and then transferred to a 4-year University for 3 more years all while working 40/hours a week with ZERO government help to get my degree.

Apparently people who work while going to school don't quality for any of these programs.

Why should someone who can't afford to go to school not do what I did?  I mean community college to me should be subsidized (basically like grade 13 and 14), so I support you there, but college should not be free.
I went to community college here for a year right out of high school and it came out be something ridiculous like $1500 a semester. Bartend 30 nights and you can pay for a year of school. It's really not hard at all.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-20 20:08:50
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

Doctor Strangelove wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

You're forgetting that the children of rich parents get at advantage over those who aren't so lucky.
Is that fair?
Only rich kids get to be doctors, don't have to join the military?

Should life be fair?
I was born dirt poor and I'll be finishing up college in the spring. My younger brother graduated 3 years ago and has a job as a 3rd mate on an Offshore Supply Vessel. He took out loans to pay for school and he's making more than enough money to cover them along with all of his other bills and still has plenty to party like the drunken sailor he is while home.

Sure, growing up with wealth makes a lot of things easier in life but I got over my jealousy a long time ago. They got 'lucky'. Who cares? My kids will be 'lucky' one day.
Your kids will be lucky because you worked hard. Not everyone will have parents who work hard, even if the child is hard-working himself. The whole education system is designed to make the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, sure there are a few cases, but nearly every instance, a person's socioeconomic status is going to be similar to that of their parents.
The beauty of this country is there is absolutely nothing holding any poor kid from reaching for the stars and bettering him or herself. No, it's not all about working hard but I'm a firm believer in education as a gateway to prosperity. The problem with that is that there are plenty of people that treat college like high school and sleepwalk through an easy degree path without putting real effort in. Education does not end when class is over. It's a life long process. I'm not saying that everyone should be walking around with their head buried in a book but when 80% of the books read in this country are purchased by 10% of the population I see a problem. If your parents sat on their ass and watched tv for 6 hours a night then that is what you will learn from them. I think THAT has more to do with where they end up in life than what their socio-economic status was at birth.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-20 20:10:07
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6953|San Diego, CA, USA
When I went to school is was about ~$13 per unit and most classes were 3 units each, so less than $40 you can take a class.  The real killer were the books.  Some of my classmates would buy the book, take it to a place and photocopy the entire book, and then return the book.

Also, I took night classes.  Because:

1) The people there actually want to be there so you don't get all the kids from high-school there forced to go by their parents.
2) Worked during the day.
3) Parking was better
4) Class size ~30 or less (my English 202 class only had 15 students)
5) Some of the teachers were also professors at the local universities, so basically you got taught using the same book from the same professor for only $13/unit instead of 400 students in the same room at a University.

Negatives though:

1) You don't get to live in a dorm and fuck the brains out of all the Freshmen
2) You don't make as many long-term friends that you'll later use to get jobs as contacts
3) You don't have a fraternities or sorority in Community college

Last edited by Harmor (2009-09-20 20:10:22)

2009-09-20 20:12:35
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

Harmor wrote:

When I went to school is was about ~$13 per unit and most classes were 3 units each, so less than $40 you can take a class.  The real killer were the books.  Some of my classmates would buy the book, take it to a place and photocopy the entire book, and then return the book.

Also, I took night classes.  Because:

1) The people there actually want to be there so you don't get all the kids from high-school there forced to go by their parents.
2) Worked during the day.
3) Parking was better
4) Class size ~30 or less (my English 202 class only had 15 students)
5) Some of the teachers were also professors at the local universities, so basically you got taught using the same book from the same professor for only $13/unit instead of 400 students in the same room at a University.

Negatives though:

1) You don't get to live in a dorm and fuck the brains out of all the Freshmen
2) You don't make as many long-term friends that you'll later use to get jobs as contacts
3) You don't have a fraternities or sorority in Community college
I thought Cal schools were dirt cheap though. Probably have gone up but I remember the instate tuition was something ridiculous like $3k a year when I was looking at schools back in '99.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-20 20:14:25
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6627|Brisneyland
Our Govt (Australia) uses a low interest loan system for Uni students. It has to be payed back when the student starts work, and its very low interest ( whatever inflation is). This system is pretty fair as it means anyone can study regardless of parents finances. But of course many Americans wont consider a comparable system because its govt run.
2009-09-20 20:19:20
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

Burwhale wrote:

Our Govt (Australia) uses a low interest loan system for Uni students. It has to be payed back when the student starts work, and its very low interest ( whatever inflation is). This system is pretty fair as it means anyone can study regardless of parents finances. But of course many Americans wont consider a comparable system because its govt run.
We already have a similar system in place. The interest on the loans is only like 1%.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-20 20:41:22
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7005|132 and Bush

JohnG@lt wrote:

Burwhale wrote:

Our Govt (Australia) uses a low interest loan system for Uni students. It has to be payed back when the student starts work, and its very low interest ( whatever inflation is). This system is pretty fair as it means anyone can study regardless of parents finances. But of course many Americans wont consider a comparable system because its govt run.
We already have a similar system in place. The interest on the loans is only like 1%.
Yea I know some ppl, like my ex, who have used this program. The exact program name escapes me but here is a link..
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/ … /index.jsp
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-09-20 20:48:20
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

Kmarion wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Burwhale wrote:

Our Govt (Australia) uses a low interest loan system for Uni students. It has to be payed back when the student starts work, and its very low interest ( whatever inflation is). This system is pretty fair as it means anyone can study regardless of parents finances. But of course many Americans wont consider a comparable system because its govt run.
We already have a similar system in place. The interest on the loans is only like 1%.
Yea I know some ppl, like my ex, who have used this program. The exact program name escapes me but here is a link..
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/ … /index.jsp
It's FAFSA.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-20 21:03:00
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7119|US

Doctor Strangelove wrote:

Your kids will be lucky because you worked hard. Not everyone will have parents who work hard, even if the child is hard-working himself. The whole education system is designed to make the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, sure there are a few cases, but nearly every instance, a person's socioeconomic status is going to be similar to that of their parents.
Yeah, I call BS.

My grandfather didn't graduate high school.  He went back, later, got his GED etc.  Now he has a net worth of over $1mil.

My parents are in the lower half of "middle class" but I was able to win over $500K in schooling options (USAFA appointment, ROTC scholarship, $74K scholarship at IIT in Chicago). 

It's really not that difficult.  Almost all of my friends from HS are pursuing university or community college options, and my high school was always on the "academic watch list" for underperforming.
2009-09-20 21:28:31
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6627|Brisneyland

JG wrote:

We already have a similar system in place. The interest on the loans is only like 1%.
Well if its so good, why are they changing it? There must be something wrong with it , like limited numbers or other criteria, otherwise there shouldnt be any problems for students getting financial assistance. Can all students access this?
2009-09-20 21:32:31
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

Burwhale wrote:

JG wrote:

We already have a similar system in place. The interest on the loans is only like 1%.
Well if its so good, why are they changing it? There must be something wrong with it , like limited numbers or other criteria, otherwise there shouldnt be any problems for students getting financial assistance. Can all students access this?
It's for lower income students. Either emancipated teens or kids whose parents make under a certain amount per year. I believe it's relatively high though, about $70k combined. I have no idea why they would change it either, most college loans are done through Fannie Mae anyway which is a shell company for the US Government.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-20 21:45:26
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5990

JohnG@lt wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Macbeth wrote:


But not everyone can afford it you idiot. That's what she means when she says it's elitist, in the fact that only the rich could pay for it.
I went 3 years in Community College and then transferred to a 4-year University for 3 more years all while working 40/hours a week with ZERO government help to get my degree.

Apparently people who work while going to school don't quality for any of these programs.

Why should someone who can't afford to go to school not do what I did?  I mean community college to me should be subsidized (basically like grade 13 and 14), so I support you there, but college should not be free.
I went to community college here for a year right out of high school and it came out be something ridiculous like $1500 a semester. Bartend 30 nights and you can pay for a year of school. It's really not hard at all.
That is lovely really.

But think of it this way, with the current shape of the economy a teen out of high school without a skill set and experience could not go out and find a job that would pay enough for college or find a job flexible enough that they could work and go to class at the same time.

Now I understand what both of you are saying as in the whole work hard earn your way thing. That is respectable but doesn't always work the way you make it sound.

If you really want your country to do better you would want as many people to get through school as possible any way they can, even if the government as to flip the bill. Most of the countries problems can be greatly reduced if we manage to get as many people through college as possible.

Don't be bitter because you had to work hard for it while others will have it given to them, you'll benefit when the next round of graduates go out and improve living condition, technology, order etc.
2009-09-20 22:01:58
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6809|North Carolina
Mac, you're just a commie socialist that isn't embracing the American Dream.  All it takes is hard work, and you could be a billionaire.

It's quite amazing actually, because apparently, reality is entirely different in America than it is in every other country.

Unlike in most other First World nations, having socialized education in America is evil and only rewards lazy kids who just aren't working hard enough to pay their own way.
2009-09-20 22:03:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Harmor wrote:


I went 3 years in Community College and then transferred to a 4-year University for 3 more years all while working 40/hours a week with ZERO government help to get my degree.

Apparently people who work while going to school don't quality for any of these programs.

Why should someone who can't afford to go to school not do what I did?  I mean community college to me should be subsidized (basically like grade 13 and 14), so I support you there, but college should not be free.
I went to community college here for a year right out of high school and it came out be something ridiculous like $1500 a semester. Bartend 30 nights and you can pay for a year of school. It's really not hard at all.
That is lovely really.

But think of it this way, with the current shape of the economy a teen out of high school without a skill set and experience could not go out and find a job that would pay enough for college or find a job flexible enough that they could work and go to class at the same time.

Now I understand what both of you are saying as in the whole work hard earn your way thing. That is respectable but doesn't always work the way you make it sound.

If you really want your country to do better you would want as many people to get through school as possible any way they can, even if the government as to flip the bill. Most of the countries problems can be greatly reduced if we manage to get as many people through college as possible.

Don't be bitter because you had to work hard for it while others will have it given to them, you'll benefit when the next round of graduates go out and improve living condition, technology, order etc.
I'm not bitter in the slightest. I'm realistic enough to know that 50% of people in this country are below average and will fail out anyway if given the opportunity. My fear is not that more people will graduate college, I think it would be great. My fear is that standards will be lowered like they have been for public schooling to the point of absurdity. What's the point of graduating more people from college if the standards have to be lowered to push them through?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-20 22:05:39
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6953|San Diego, CA, USA
If we didn't have so many illegals (BTW in California they want to give Illegals in-state tuition rates), perhaps teenagers would have more jobs.
2009-09-20 22:13:02
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7005|132 and Bush

JohnG@lt wrote:

What's the point of graduating more people from college if the standards have to be lowered to push them through?
Statistics of course. Please, just don't look behind them.

Actually you are one of the few people in this thread that doesn't sound bitter tbh. The rest is oozing sarcasm with very little real content behind their opinions.

turquoise wrote:

It's quite amazing actually, because apparently, reality is entirely different in America than it is in every other country.
First of all lolz for "every other country". Secondly your reality is not my reality.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-09-20 22:15:13
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6809|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

turquoise wrote:

It's quite amazing actually, because apparently, reality is entirely different in America than it is in every other country.
First of all lolz for "every other country". Secondly your reality is not my reality.
Yes, quite clearly it isn't.  I suppose Reciprocity caught on quicker than I that rationalizing with some people just doesn't work.

Enjoy your reality.
2009-09-20 22:17:39
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7005|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

turquoise wrote:

It's quite amazing actually, because apparently, reality is entirely different in America than it is in every other country.
First of all lolz for "every other country". Secondly your reality is not my reality.
Yes, quite clearly it isn't.  I suppose Reciprocity caught on quicker than I that rationalizing with some people just doesn't work.

Enjoy your reality.
More hollow arguments. I'm glad to see something besides other countries do it so it must be right from you though.

I am.. enjoy your misery.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-09-20 23:59:02
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6784|MN
Honestly, there are enough ways for people to go to college if they want to.  Should we really be so willing to send everyone to college?  I think not.  If all the jobs available required a certain level of knowledge then you may have a case.  As it stands now I still need a few more underachievers to make sure the cereal bags are sitting in the conveyor correctly.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
2009-09-21 05:55:54
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7085|Disaster Free Zone

LividBovine wrote:

Honestly, there are enough ways for people to go to college if they want to.  Should we really be so willing to send everyone to college?  I think not.  If all the jobs available required a certain level of knowledge then you may have a case.  As it stands now I still need a few more underachievers to make sure the cereal bags are sitting in the conveyor correctly.
So you don't want to educate people so you can exploit them?
2009-09-21 06:59:54
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5762|London, England

DrunkFace wrote:

LividBovine wrote:

Honestly, there are enough ways for people to go to college if they want to.  Should we really be so willing to send everyone to college?  I think not.  If all the jobs available required a certain level of knowledge then you may have a case.  As it stands now I still need a few more underachievers to make sure the cereal bags are sitting in the conveyor correctly.
So you don't want to educate people so you can exploit them?
Frankly, I think colleges are the biggest exploiters in this country. You pay them loads of money every year to teach you stuff that you could probably learn much better on your own. Instead of blowing $120k on a history degree from Harvard you could take that money and buy a library and still have enough money left over to visit all the battle sites of the Napoleonic Wars or take a trip to the Mayan jungle and study the pyramids there or visit the temples of India. I'd say the latter is a much better education and a better bang for your buck than sitting in a stuffy classroom and being taught by someone that was afraid of the real world.

Instead, they lure millions of kids a year with the promise of future happiness and wealth. What does college really teach you? That you can schedule work so you never have to get out of bed before 11 am? Sure, it's a structured environment that exposes young minds to new ideas etc but that could be done by living in a young neighborhood like the East Village in Manhattan or going out to San Francisco. People are too caught up in the idea of institutions of learning, learning takes place every day if you let yourself.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2009-09-21 07:12:25
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7119|US
JohnG@lt has a good point.  Why the heck are we paying so freaking much for college?  At some places, each instructor could make a nice living off of 2 student's tuition!

The other thing is something like 60-80% of jobs in the US do not require a 4 year degree. 
Education is great, but we've deluded ouselves into thinking people without post-secondary education are doomed to failure.
2009-09-21 07:16:37
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6510|eXtreme to the maX
120k for a degree is absurd.
If there weren't the 'which school did you go to' snobbery they wouldn't be able to charge that.
Degrees don't even typically equip you to do a job, its a starting point only.
Fuck Israel

 

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