BF2S Forums A rant about education, unemployment, and money.

Macbeth wrote:

You're naive if you think a big business is going to take someone with a degree in Phil over someone with a degree in Economics. Even my Phil Professor for one of my classes said it isn't a degree that would bring home cash. You can look online and at career planners advice and they will all say the same thing.
The correct thing to say I am would be pessimistic.

Er, my dad works as a ceo of small companies. He said one of the highest (if not the highest) sought after major is philosophy. People who think can fix problems - not solely limited to marketing. These are tech companies, btw.

The correct thing to say you are is incorrect.

Macbeth wrote:

Bevo wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

You're funny.

You're naive.

You're naive if you think a big business is going to take someone with a degree in Phil over someone with a degree in Economics. Even my Phil Professor for one of my classes said it isn't a degree that would bring home cash. You can look online and at career planners advice and they will all say the same thing.
The correct thing to say I am would be pessimistic.

Macbeth speaks the truth.   I work for a mega-Corporation with offices all over the world.  IT field, yes, but I deal with HR all the way up to Sr. VP level.  I've been the interviewer on occasion too.

mtb0minime wrote:

Macbeth: it's not entirely implausible.
Bevo: one small company does not represent the majority of companies around America.


Spoiler (highlight to read):
Just going for a happy-medium here

This too. Also Bevo, would you really want a guy who only studied philosophy working on something like a project for designing a more efficient gasoline motor? A mechanical engineer who minored in philosophy I could understand yeah, but not a pure philosophy major.

Macbeth wrote:

Big business rather get a guy who have studied finance and has a high GPA than someone who can recite what Plato said about society a few thousand years ago. Phil isn't even about problem solving as much as it just remembering what other people said before. Anyone can solve a problem in any case usually a person with experience in the field could solve it better than a person who has to consult the ghost of Karl Marx.

How many big businesses have you managed macbeth? How many philosophy courses have you taken?

I've taken a course called "Theory of Knowledge" - and though it may seem irrelevant on the outside, perspective matters. We're not talking about history of philosophy here.

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

This too. Also Bevo, would you really want a guy who only studied philosophy working on something like a project for designing a more efficient gasoline motor? A mechanical engineer who minored in philosophy I could understand yeah, but not a pure philosophy major.

The technical aspects? Probably not. Would you want a mechanical engineer major working on your advertising team?

Last edited by Bevo (2009-10-12 15:10:33)

Bevo wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Big business rather get a guy who have studied finance and has a high GPA than someone who can recite what Plato said about society a few thousand years ago. Phil isn't even about problem solving as much as it just remembering what other people said before. Anyone can solve a problem in any case usually a person with experience in the field could solve it better than a person who has to consult the ghost of Karl Marx.

How many big businesses have you managed macbeth? How many philosophy courses have you taken?

I've taken a course called "Theory of Knowledge" - and though it may seem irrelevant on the outside, perspective matters. We're not talking about history of philosophy here.

How many big business have you managed? The same logic works both way. It just makes more sense for a bussiness to pick up a person with a 4.0 in Economic than a person with a 4.0 in Phil.

I have taken one Phil class, called contempt moral issues, it's just a bunch of reading about what other people said and writing about it, it doesn't involve any self thinking. Now problem solving comes naturally for most people. I am willing to bet a person with a 4.0 in Economics can solve a complex issue in Finance better than a person with a 4.0 in Phil.

Bevo they also have degrees in Marketing. FFS

Uzique wrote:

stop discussing subject vs. subject ratings.

elitism and snobbery are the number one discerning and deciding factors in the workplace. the quality of your school and the reputation that precedes you will more often than not decide whether or not you get the job, or at least get short-listed in the first place.

Wrong.  That's only your foot in the door job.  After that, it's experience.

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Uzique wrote:

stop discussing subject vs. subject ratings.

elitism and snobbery are the number one discerning and deciding factors in the workplace. the quality of your school and the reputation that precedes you will more often than not decide whether or not you get the job, or at least get short-listed in the first place.

Wrong.  That's only your foot in the door job.  After that, it's experience.

right.

so subject vs. subject doesnt matter, the first job is based on discriminatory reputation and snobbery shit. after that, it's work experience that counts.

so im not really 'wrong', am i. im correct. whether or not your university education matters especially after the first job(s) is irrelevant.

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

No I wouldn't. But what exactly would a pure philosopher contribute to the whole project? "Oh, we need to make motors more efficient." Well no shit. Every mechanical engineer knows that. Hell pretty much everyone knows that.

Perhaps the more important point here is that everyone should know how to think.

But they don't, hence why philosophy majors are important. It's not so much looking at something in a purely technical sense.

A philosophy major would be more apt to deal with problems as a whole rather than at specific instances. Let's take your example.

"We need to make motors more efficient"
Why?
The ME guy says "Because it consumes too much gasoline"
the philosophy guy might say "is it necessary?"

Think of how many interconnected parts there are. An inefficient engine is acceptable if gas prices decrease. An inefficient engine is acceptable if its above the standards at the time. It's acceptable if the build cost is lowered. It might be acceptable if you advertise it in a way that detracts attention from the inefficient motor.

Macbeth wrote:

How many big business have you managed? The same logic works both way. It just makes more sense for a bussiness to pick up a person with a 4.0 in Economic than a person with a 4.0 in Phil.

That's your opinion which yes, just like mine, is backed by no real experience.

I have taken one Phil class, called contempt moral issues, it's just a bunch of reading about what other people said and writing about it, it doesn't involve any self thinking. Now problem solving comes naturally for most people. I am willing to bet a person with a 4.0 in Economics can solve a complex issue in Finance better than a person with a 4.0 in Phil.

You're thinking about it the wrong way. Problem solving in a purely economic respect would surely be easier for an economics major. But your business is not pure economic situations.

Bevo they also have degrees in Marketing. FFS

Yes, who are not taught the same ways of thinking that philosophy majors are.

Last edited by Bevo (2009-10-12 15:20:54)

mtb0minime wrote:

Uzique wrote:

stop discussing subject vs. subject ratings.

elitism and snobbery are the number one discerning and deciding factors in the workplace. the quality of your school and the reputation that precedes you will more often than not decide whether or not you get the job, or at least get short-listed in the first place.

This is also true. School brands ftw!

I had narrowed down my choices to two schools. In the end I went with the one with a better brand name, as opposed to the one with more hands-on work and smaller classes (which means better learning most of the time). I do not regret my decision one bit (especially when I see what shit shape this other school has become thanks to state funding, but that's besides the point). In the end I may not be as smart as the other guys out there, but I know how to learn on my own, and will have more opportunities.

Which school was that if you don't mind my asking?

Ilocano wrote:

Oh, shit.  It's the Philosophy majors who brought down the Big 3.

Posts like these are why I don't get into debates around here. GG BF2S.

Bevo wrote:

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

No I wouldn't. But what exactly would a pure philosopher contribute to the whole project? "Oh, we need to make motors more efficient." Well no shit. Every mechanical engineer knows that. Hell pretty much everyone knows that.

Perhaps the more important point here is that everyone should know how to think.

But they don't, hence why philosophy majors are important. It's not so much looking at something in a purely technical sense.

A philosophy major would be more apt to deal with problems as a whole rather than at specific instances. Let's take your example.

"We need to make motors more efficient"
Why?
The ME guy says "Because it consumes too much gasoline"
the philosophy guy might say "is it necessary?"

Think of how many interconnected parts there are. An inefficient engine is acceptable if gas prices decrease. An inefficient engine is acceptable if its above the standards at the time. It's acceptable if the build cost is lowered. It might be acceptable if you advertise it in a way that detracts attention from the inefficient motor.

Macbeth wrote:

How many big business have you managed? The same logic works both way. It just makes more sense for a bussiness to pick up a person with a 4.0 in Economic than a person with a 4.0 in Phil.

That's your opinion which yes, just like mine, is backed by no real experience.

I have taken one Phil class, called contempt moral issues, it's just a bunch of reading about what other people said and writing about it, it doesn't involve any self thinking. Now problem solving comes naturally for most people. I am willing to bet a person with a 4.0 in Economics can solve a complex issue in Finance better than a person with a 4.0 in Phil.

You're thinking about it the wrong way. Problem solving in a purely economic respect would surely be easier for an economics major. But your business is not pure economic situations.

Bevo they also have degrees in Marketing. FFS

Yes, who are not taught the same ways of thinking that philosophy majors are.

So If I get this correctly, you would hire a person for run your marketing team who has a degree in Phil over a person who has a degree in Marketing?

Big Business emplys huge amounts of people, most of these people have degrees directed related to the position they occupy. Everything that could be filled in by a Phil major you can find someone with better grades who has a degree in that exact area who knows what he is doing rather than knows what Nietzsche thought about sex.

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

blah blah blah

Which school was that if you don't mind my asking?

The school I was considering going to was Cal Poly Pomona. It's a great technical school, and they had an amazing program for what I wanted to do, and one of their specialties was in the sub-branch of engineering that I wanted to get into. However, I have a few friends who are going there now and have been going there for the past 3 or 4 years and they say it's terrible, mainly as far as the infrastructure of the school goes. Signing up for classes is a bitch, finding out what you need to take is difficult. Hell, they even had to cancel summer classes (which have been the only thing keeping me from having to take 5 whole years to graduate) due to budget cuts.

And as far as the non-academic stuff goes, I'm happy with my experiences here, and think my horizons have been broadened a lot more than they would have at the other school.

Ty's Observations about University

Lesson #1: If you’re creative and motivated then you may be better off outside the university system.

It is a cruel structured system that makes little sense and is NOT an ideal environment for intellectual thought - this mostly relates to the social sciences. At Masters and Doctorate level you get the intellectual stimulae but at Undergrad level it's like pulling the wings off a butterfly. Every University is a degree factory and as that analogy allludes to the fact that it is a dingy grey place where you will be asked to mass produce academic writing - a system of writing that is so impersonal and impenetrable that it is not a pleasure to write, read or to even be around.

Lesson #2: The real value of your degree may be as a back-up plan.

As far as employment is concerned it's not what you know it's who you know. A degree can be a usefull tool to give you an edge, to show that you can be dedicated enough to get a degree but it is not a sign that you are more qualified to do a particular job and employers know that. University doesn't prepare you for the real world, it can only ever be "a good thing to have on your CV."

Lesson #3: University is not for everyone.

It's not. It's not for me and I've been here four years. Going to University just 'cause it's the logical next step after school is often a very bad idea. Instead of just jumping at the option of University check out other options - Polytech courses, specialist courses, apprenticeships, regular full-time employment. University doesn't give you a massive advantage unless you KNOW what your career is going to be and that's a rare thing, especially given that most people change their careers multiple times in their lives.

Lesson #4: Fucking with the traditional full-time, two-major, three-year degree model leads to interesting things.

If you are going to University simply to get through a degree it will be an unpleasant experience. That's not to say you shouldn't do it but if you are at University to learn, (or attempt to,) then simply filling in your timetable each semester so you've got a degree at the end of it all is probably not the best idea. Mix-and-Match for a couple of years, don't worry too much about prerequisits for the future of your degree because if there's a paper you really want to do later or some requirements for a major you want to pursue you can always get exemptions, they're not hard to get. Do papers you're interested in, if there are no interesting papers in your chosen field of study and you still want to fill your timetable look at other subjects or simply have a gap. Use the gap to earn some money or indulge in some hobbies or work even harder on the papers you ARE doing to get amazing marks or take a break from University all together. It won't mean that you'll get your degree any sooner but if time's not a factor than it can be a good way to beat the bring-down from the aforementioned dingy grey Degree Factory.

Lesson #5: University never ever prepares you for the "Real World".

This goes without saying. Even doing something like Law or Medicine where what you learn at tertiary level is esential to your career, university is not going to teach you what it's like when you finally go out into the big bad world.

Lesson #6: Learn to think.

Looking back on my University career I come to the conclusion that I haven't learned anything. This isn't entirely true. It's important to think about what University actually teaches you - it teaches you to think. With this in mind, whether you have an Economics major or a Philosophy major you're still equally as employable so don't get tied up in thinking "is this good for my career", (especially if you don't know what it's going to be yet.) They both teach you what you need to know and the best way to ensure you excell is to do what you want to do, not what your possible future career might want you to do.