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Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6841|SE London

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I do not understand what the limit is besides the speed of light.

The article does not seem to be written very well. It doesn't explain exactly why there is an upper limit, it doesn't use Moore's law quite right, and it just seems to be very dumbed-down.
The article is very dumbed down.

I bet the original study is perfectly sound, but has just been horribly misrepresented in this shockingly bad article.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6967|67.222.138.85
Yeah, read the rest of the thread big B7.

I'm gonna call you B7 now.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6841|SE London

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Yeah, read the rest of the thread big B7.

I'm gonna call you B7 now.
Looking at it again, I've changed my mind.

The limit they are putting on speeds is really, really high. Maybe it can't be exceeded (although I'm still sceptical).

You have to bear in mind that they're talking about computers more than 137 billion times faster than those in use today (75 years of Moore's law holding true).

75/2 = 37ish. 237 =137 billion times the number of transistors

That's pretty fucking quick. It's also per unit energy, so who's to say we won't just pump more energy in. I'm beginning to disbelieve this less and less.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6967|67.222.138.85
Because packing more transistors in closer to each other means that the leakage from each transistor affects the ones around it more and more.

Moore's law isn't going to hold forever.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6757

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Moore's law isn't going to hold forever.
Moore's Law > you

. . .and me. i liked the article in that they spent the time in. the theory put fwd: was the smallest yet observed - ergo they based the timings off that. Not totally empirical, it was a matter of observed phenomena, extrapolated to the theory now held.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6976
Kind of silly to predict 75 years from now... but fun neverthless...lol


Here are some funny predictions from the past...

2. “We will never make a 32 bit operating system.” — Bill Gates

“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.”
--Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977

“This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.”
--Western Union internal memo, 1876.

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?”
--David Sarnoff’s associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s

“Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?”
--H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.

“We don’t like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out.”
--Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.

“Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.”
--Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.

“Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You’re crazy.”
--Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859

“The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives.”
--Admiral William Leahy, US Atomic Bomb Project.

“Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau.”
--Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.

“Louis Pastueur’s theory of germs is ridiculous fiction.”
--Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

“I’m just glad it’ll be Clark Gable who’s falling on his face and not Gary Cooper.”
--Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in “Gone With The Wind.”

http://listverse.com/2007/10/28/top-30- … edictions/
http://www.2spare.com/item_50221.aspx
Love is the answer
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6967|67.222.138.85
Guys there is a big difference between predicting something just because, and proving a natural limit.

i.e. General relativity is not a prediction, it is a logical statement of the natural speed bound.
GC_PaNzerFIN
Work and study @ Technical Uni
+528|6674|Finland

This theory is solely based on the fact that no one is able to figure out alternative way of thinking and doing it.

IF that was the case, big IF, there would be this limit. But so far every time there has been a seeminly impossible barrier, some genius has figured it out eventually.
3930K | H100i | RIVF | 16GB DDR3 | GTX 480 | AX750 | 800D | 512GB SSD | 3TB HDD | Xonar DX | W8
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6967|67.222.138.85
Not really. As I said, it is based on how fast we can change one quantum bit according to quantum theory. You have to go from one bit to another necessarily if what you're dealing with looks anything like what we would call a computer, and according to natural laws it takes x amount of time to go from one energy state to another.

The point is this theory has valid reasoning, and while it is only a theory and no one is saying that it is correct and will never be disproven, it is pretty dumb to say that it is wrong "just because we will figure out a way around it".
GC_PaNzerFIN
Work and study @ Technical Uni
+528|6674|Finland

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Not really. As I said, it is based on how fast we can change one quantum bit according to quantum theory. You have to go from one bit to another necessarily if what you're dealing with looks anything like what we would call a computer, and according to natural laws it takes x amount of time to go from one energy state to another.

The point is this theory has valid reasoning, and while it is only a theory and no one is saying that it is correct and will never be disproven, it is pretty dumb to say that it is wrong "just because we will figure out a way around it".
I am saying what if the next big thing couldn't be more different than Quantum bit?

We had absolutely no idea about quantum physics not long ago.

Last edited by GC_PaNzerFIN (2009-10-20 05:45:49)

3930K | H100i | RIVF | 16GB DDR3 | GTX 480 | AX750 | 800D | 512GB SSD | 3TB HDD | Xonar DX | W8
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6967|67.222.138.85
The article is specifically talking about limits to computing. Obviously it would not apply to something other than a quantum computer.
Defiance
Member
+438|6931

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

The article is specifically talking about limits to computing. Obviously it would not apply to something other than a quantum computer.
No, it's specific to quantum computers as we know them, not computing itself. Modern computers have their limit, once we build a quantum computer it will have a limit as described in the article, and there may be something after that. It's not guaranteed, but I reject the idea of a limit to computing being defined 75 years ahead of time. What did we know 75 years ago?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6967|67.222.138.85
I say again, obviously if would not apply to something other than a quantum computer. Would it make you feel better if I put "quantum" before computing in the first sentence?
Mr.Dooomed
Find your center.
+752|6588

With the speed of computers blah blah blah quantum physics quadrillion milliseconds blah blah
would u like some mayo with that baloney?
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
Defiance
Member
+438|6931

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I say again, obviously if would not apply to something other than a quantum computer. Would it make you feel better if I put "quantum" before computing in the first sentence?
No, my only point is the implicit difference between quantum computing and something we may or may not develop in the next 75 years; you didn't hang on the diction, so I won't.
VicktorVauhn
Member
+319|6652|Southern California

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I say again, obviously if would not apply to something other than a quantum computer. Would it make you feel better if I put "quantum" before computing in the first sentence?
Thats kinda the whole point though.

Its like if back when they used punch cards they said "Ohh, punch cards can only be so fast, so in 75 years we will reach the limit of whats physically possible"

All well and good, but we reached the limits of technology all the time, and they just come up with a different way to do it. With the rate technology is progressing, and that fact that all this new technology allows us to research/invent/build even crazier shit, its not unreasonable to think that with in 75 years the current way of doing things will look like punch cards.
GC_PaNzerFIN
Work and study @ Technical Uni
+528|6674|Finland

I think what is the most amazing feat so far is that we are able to calculate that stuff 75 years in advance, so we know what to prepare for and what the problem is long before it becomes a problem.

Last edited by GC_PaNzerFIN (2009-10-22 03:41:46)

3930K | H100i | RIVF | 16GB DDR3 | GTX 480 | AX750 | 800D | 512GB SSD | 3TB HDD | Xonar DX | W8
some_random_panda
Flamesuit essential
+454|6650

GC_PaNzerFIN wrote:

I think what is the most amazing feat so far is that we are able to calculate that stuff 75 years in advance, so we know what to prepare for and what the problem is long before it becomes a problem.
Why would it be a problem?  We're probably going to hit some barrier ourselves where there isn't much use going any faster.

(Assuming we get that far.)

Last edited by some_random_panda (2009-10-22 04:53:59)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6934|Canberra, AUS

Ilocano wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Unless you consider VSL.  Tachyons?
Tachyons are still hypothetical and haven't been proven to exist.  However, there is this quote from wikipedia.

Even if tachyons were conventional, localizable particles, they would still preserve the basic tenets of causality in special relativity and not allow transmission of information faster than light,[3] contrary to what has been written in many works of science fiction.
Yes, for now...   My point is that the OP source makes a blank statement that light and electrons are the be all, end all of computing.  Considering the vastness of space, there has to be something beyond Quantum Mechanics.
no not for now... unless special relativity is completely wrong. you quite simply cannot transmit information fast than the speed of light.

i would have thought the barrier we hit first was the barrier at which quantum fluctuations start to play a role... we don't want a processor governed by pure randomness.

so unless we invent a computer which does something supremely funky with the geometry of space then it won't happen.

And there is an even more fundemental limit which forms the basis of the holographic principle... that a computer that is so powerful that it can pack truly ludicrous amounts of data (and energy) in a single place will form a black hole, so there is a limit on the amount of data that can be stored on a certain  area/volume. But I don't think we need to worry about that for a long, long time

Last edited by Spark (2009-10-23 02:30:36)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Zimmer
Un Moderador
+1,688|7016|Scotland

But pure randomness could create a black hole!!!

Tbh, who cares.... We'll all either be dead in 75 years or too old to type.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6934|Canberra, AUS

Zimmer wrote:

But pure randomness could create a black hole!!!

Tbh, who cares.... We'll all either be dead in 75 years or too old to type.
nah it couldn't because said randomness would have to give back the energy it took to make the blackhole in a really, really, really short time - before it could be observed. so it'd just vanish without a trace

And there might be more of us around in 75 years than you think.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6927

Zimmer wrote:

But pure randomness could create a black hole!!!

Tbh, who cares.... We'll all either be dead in 75 years or too old to type.
Don't be too sure about that.  It may not be our generation, but could be the next.  We are in the brink of discovering immortality, at least regarding maintaining our body.
some_random_panda
Flamesuit essential
+454|6650

Uh oh...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie … light.html

Either they made a mistake, they're lying, or we're all doomed about to see sweet new life forms/black holes/weird, weird universes.

Last edited by some_random_panda (2009-10-24 01:11:48)

GC_PaNzerFIN
Work and study @ Technical Uni
+528|6674|Finland

some_random_panda wrote:

Uh oh...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie … light.html

Either they made a mistake, they're lying, or we're all doomed about to see sweet new life forms/black holes/weird, weird universes.
Holy fking shit now that came behind the corner! If it is legit study and gets verified, we are about to step in the next level in understanding of physics.
3930K | H100i | RIVF | 16GB DDR3 | GTX 480 | AX750 | 800D | 512GB SSD | 3TB HDD | Xonar DX | W8
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6934|Canberra, AUS
well well well. bohr and the rest of the copenhagen pushers thought that locality could be broken, but i don't think they thought it would be observable.

i'll get more excited the second time though. first isn't special in science, second is.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
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