Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6797|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Your way would completely exonerate bad parenting. Poor? Lazy? Have kids anyway and the government will make sure they have the same shot in life as the offspring of those who waited until they could afford kids.
There are ways to deal with that.  One is to limit child tax credits to something like 2.  You could limit welfare allowances to a certain number of children as well.

If certain parents are unable to keep from procreating and are raising children in an environment that is deemed too poor for their own safety, then that is where child services should intervene and raise the child via orphanages or a foster home with suitable funds.

Unfortunately, this skirts authoritarianism, but there are situations where a child must be separated from his or her birth parents for the sake of their own safety and health.

JohnG@lt wrote:

I love the idea of giving all kids an equal chance, on paper. I really do. I grew up poor so it definitely appeals to me. But, and this is a but you could drive a train through, it essentially endorses bad decision making because it takes away the consequences. Sure, you can say the kid is innocent and doesn't deserve the consequences but does that kid in the next town over whose parents worked hard to make sure he had a solid education and health care and food on the table deserve to have artificial competition placed in his path?
Trust me, if we went the route I just mentioned, the problem becomes much more manageable.

JohnG@lt wrote:

I don't know about you, but my primary motivation to succeed in life is not to build up a pile of material goods around me. Frankly, I could give a rats ass whether I live in a 100 room mansion or a one bedroom apartment. No, my motivation is solely based on the fact that I want my kids to have a better childhood than I did and to grant them a level of comfort growing up that I never experienced. I want to save and invest and one day pass on the fruits of my labors to my kids and grandkids to make their lives just a bit easier. I am no trust fund baby and I sure as shit don't have any inheritance coming my way, so that is my goal. I'm a third generation American and my goal is to do better than the generation before me. I'll instill in my own children that they have to do better than I myself did.
And I would suggest that basic amenities would still allow for said ambitions.  If you look at the way many people on the dole live in some European countries, it's not pleasant.  It's bearable, but most people don't want to remain that way.

And for the people that don't have ambition, if you didn't have these things in place, some of them would die, while others would commit crimes to get by.  I know you probably don't care about the death part, but the potential criminals should be a concern.

JohnG@lt wrote:

So, if you equalize all outcomes coming out of childhood, please tell me where my motivation is. If you're going to provide health care and housing and food and clothing for my kids so that they are equal to other kids and are going to take more than half of any inheritance that I leave via taxation... what is there really to work for? As I said, having a Bentley and a mansion isn't on my to-do list...
An inheritance tax isn't mandatory for a socialist system to work.  That's something every country has a different policy on.  Also, funding for basic amenities doesn't preclude raising a child in a much better environment than the public one.

Observe how the wealthy in countries like Canada still often send their children to private schools.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6682|Éire

11 Bravo wrote:

Braddock wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

hey brad, turq, etc...

is glenn and bill o are "zomg so stupid, fools, idiots, blah blah blah."  then why do yall even listen to them or read what they say?  i think mike moore is a fuck and dont watch or read a single thing he says.
I watch all manner of news and media, from far-left to far-right... it's called getting a fully informed opinion. I also happen to think Michael Moore is a piss-poor documentary-maker, the only difference between me and you is that I've seen his films.
i have seen his movies.  well, not this latest one because i stopped listening to him.  just like glenn i dont even bother with him.  you say thats informed?  listening to incorrect people is informed?  only difference between you and me is im not trying to be a fake on a internet forum.
Two minutes ago you said you don't watch or read a single thing he says and now you're saying you've seen all his films except his latest one? Make your fucking mind up.

I listen to all sides in an argument, then once I've listened to all sides I can decide which ones to dismiss as uninformed drivel. Tell me, what's more informed... listening to three or four people in a debate or listening to ten or twelve?

Fake? Where the fuck did that come from mate? Please explain how I'm being a "fake on an internet forum".

Last edited by Braddock (2010-01-31 15:13:36)

Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7013|London, England

11 Bravo wrote:

"program"

the commercial sector already builds the shuttle.  private company loads the crew into the shuttle.  hell not much is govt anyway....except the budget ofc.

/in general inb4kmarion
The commercial sector builds the shuttle under contract from NASA who are themselves funded by the government. The only difference between a private company working for the government under contract, and a proper government company is the fact that the private company simply pockets more of the money for itself as profit. Yeah I know there's more to it than that, but that's basically how it is.

Nothing is really government except the budget/money. You can practically say that for government/nationalised companies too.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5629|Cleveland, Ohio

Braddock wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Braddock wrote:


I watch all manner of news and media, from far-left to far-right... it's called getting a fully informed opinion. I also happen to think Michael Moore is a piss-poor documentary-maker, the only difference between me and you is that I've seen his films.
[h]i have seen his movies[h].  well, not this latest one because i stopped listening to him.  just like glenn i dont even bother with him.  you say thats informed?  listening to incorrect people is informed?  only difference between you and me is im not trying to be a fake on a internet forum.
Two minutes ago you said you don't watch or read a single thing he says and now you're saying you've seen all his films except his latest one? Make your fucking mind up.

I listen to all sides in an argument, then once I've listened to all sides I can decide which ones to dismiss as uninformed drivel. Tell me, what's more informed... listening to three or four people in a debate or listening to ten or twelve?

Fake? Where the fuck did that come from mate? Please explain how I'm being a "fake on an internet forum".
well i had to watch his stuff to know i dont want to watch it anymore.

all sides?  i thought you could just watch the bbc and get the truth?


as for the fake thing, i read your response wrong i think.  i thought you were being a dick.  were you?
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6682|Éire

11 Bravo wrote:

Braddock wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

[h]i have seen his movies[h].  well, not this latest one because i stopped listening to him.  just like glenn i dont even bother with him.  you say thats informed?  listening to incorrect people is informed?  only difference between you and me is im not trying to be a fake on a internet forum.
Two minutes ago you said you don't watch or read a single thing he says and now you're saying you've seen all his films except his latest one? Make your fucking mind up.

I listen to all sides in an argument, then once I've listened to all sides I can decide which ones to dismiss as uninformed drivel. Tell me, what's more informed... listening to three or four people in a debate or listening to ten or twelve?

Fake? Where the fuck did that come from mate? Please explain how I'm being a "fake on an internet forum".
well i had to watch his stuff to know i dont want to watch it anymore.

all sides?  i thought you could just watch the bbc and get the truth?

as for the fake thing, i read your response wrong i think.  i thought you were being a dick.  were you?
So you watched his stuff then formed your opinion based on that? ...congratulations, that's what I do too. I don't get the popcorn out and watch Glenn Beck religiously every time he's on but I check out what shit he's spouting every now and again to see what the extreme right are up to.

I watch the Irish news, BBC news, Sky news, Euro News, and Fox news (whenever I'm at my folks). I also check out Reuters and a variety of other online news sources throughout the day too... but if an exclusive diet of BBC fits with your mental image of me then fine, I just watch the bbc and get the truth.

What response are you on about? How did it portray me as being a 'fake'?

Last edited by Braddock (2010-01-31 15:14:20)

11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5629|Cleveland, Ohio
bro i am saying most euros defend the bbc till the death on here.

and i dont get why people would watch a talk show to form an opinion on something is all.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6682|Éire

11 Bravo wrote:

bro i am saying most euros defend the bbc till the death on here.

and i dont get why people would watch a talk show to form an opinion on something is all.
Let's back up a second here mate. You called me a "fake on an internet forum" and yet you sit here as a Londoner from Holloway, with an Arsenal badge as your avatar, talking pejoratively about "Euros" (as though you're not European yourself), aligning yourself with centre-right American arguments... it all smacks of being a little fake if you ask me. I might be a 'lefty liberal Euro' in many people's eyes in here but at least I'm authentic.

As an Irishman I have no default reason to defend the BBC but having studied semiotics in college I have to say it's a lot more balanced and objective than many of the other major news networks, Euronews is the only one that comes to mind that is more objective in my opinion. It has been caught out on a number of issues and stories in the past but by and large I still find it a more reliable news source than many others in its field.

I don't form my opinions on other people's opinions, that's just retarded, but opinion shows can give a vague indication of what certain elements of society are thinking and feeling. Glenn Beck is also hilarious car-crash television, I often just imagine him to be Paul Giamatti the actor and imagine the program to be a comedy show.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5629|Cleveland, Ohio

Braddock wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

bro i am saying most euros defend the bbc till the death on here.

and i dont get why people would watch a talk show to form an opinion on something is all.
Let's back up a second here mate. You called me a "fake on an internet forum" and yet you sit here as a Londoner from Holloway, with an Arsenal badge as your avatar, talking pejoratively about "Euros" (as though you're not European yourself), aligning yourself with centre-right American arguments... it all smacks of being a little fake if you ask me. I might be a 'lefty liberal Euro' in many people's eyes in here but at least I'm authentic.

As an Irishman I have no default reason to defend the BBC but having studied semiotics in college I have to say it's a lot more balanced and objective than many of the other major news networks, Euronews is the only one that comes to mind that is more objective in my opinion. It has been caught out on a number of issues and stories in the past but by and large I still find it a more reliable news source than many others in its field.

I don't form my opinions on other people's opinions, that's just retarded, but opinion shows can give a vague indication of what certain elements of society are thinking and feeling. Glenn Beck is also hilarious car-crash television, I often just imagine him to be Paul Giamatti the actor and imagine the program to be a comedy show.
by "fake" i mean you call those people idiots yet you listen to them sometimes to form an opinion?  then spout off some bs about what they say as a defense for something?  thats kind of fake if you ask me because i dont buy that you do that.  you are not dumb enough to watch a talk show and listen to that shit.  i think you say stuff like that to just fuck with lowing.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6682|Éire

11 Bravo wrote:

Braddock wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

bro i am saying most euros defend the bbc till the death on here.

and i dont get why people would watch a talk show to form an opinion on something is all.
Let's back up a second here mate. You called me a "fake on an internet forum" and yet you sit here as a Londoner from Holloway, with an Arsenal badge as your avatar, talking pejoratively about "Euros" (as though you're not European yourself), aligning yourself with centre-right American arguments... it all smacks of being a little fake if you ask me. I might be a 'lefty liberal Euro' in many people's eyes in here but at least I'm authentic.

As an Irishman I have no default reason to defend the BBC but having studied semiotics in college I have to say it's a lot more balanced and objective than many of the other major news networks, Euronews is the only one that comes to mind that is more objective in my opinion. It has been caught out on a number of issues and stories in the past but by and large I still find it a more reliable news source than many others in its field.

I don't form my opinions on other people's opinions, that's just retarded, but opinion shows can give a vague indication of what certain elements of society are thinking and feeling. Glenn Beck is also hilarious car-crash television, I often just imagine him to be Paul Giamatti the actor and imagine the program to be a comedy show.
by "fake" i mean you call those people idiots yet you listen to them sometimes to form an opinion?  then spout off some bs about what they say as a defense for something?  thats kind of fake if you ask me because i dont buy that you do that.  you are not dumb enough to watch a talk show and listen to that shit.  i think you say stuff like that to just fuck with lowing.
I'll say this again one more time for you... I listen to as many sides in an argument as possible before forming my opinions. Listening only to people who share the same views as you is not good practice if you are trying to be objective and think critically. Listening to the other side in an argument does not constitute being "fake", perhaps you need to invest in a better dictionary.

Last edited by Braddock (2010-01-31 15:48:02)

11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5629|Cleveland, Ohio

Braddock wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Braddock wrote:


Let's back up a second here mate. You called me a "fake on an internet forum" and yet you sit here as a Londoner from Holloway, with an Arsenal badge as your avatar, talking pejoratively about "Euros" (as though you're not European yourself), aligning yourself with centre-right American arguments... it all smacks of being a little fake if you ask me. I might be a 'lefty liberal Euro' in many people's eyes in here but at least I'm authentic.

As an Irishman I have no default reason to defend the BBC but having studied semiotics in college I have to say it's a lot more balanced and objective than many of the other major news networks, Euronews is the only one that comes to mind that is more objective in my opinion. It has been caught out on a number of issues and stories in the past but by and large I still find it a more reliable news source than many others in its field.

I don't form my opinions on other people's opinions, that's just retarded, but opinion shows can give a vague indication of what certain elements of society are thinking and feeling. Glenn Beck is also hilarious car-crash television, I often just imagine him to be Paul Giamatti the actor and imagine the program to be a comedy show.
by "fake" i mean you call those people idiots yet you listen to them sometimes to form an opinion?  then spout off some bs about what they say as a defense for something?  thats kind of fake if you ask me because i dont buy that you do that.  you are not dumb enough to watch a talk show and listen to that shit.  i think you say stuff like that to just fuck with lowing.
I'll say this again one more time for you... I listen to as many sides in an argument as possible before forming my opinions. Listening only to people who share the same views as you is not good practice if you are trying to be objective and think critically. Listening to the other side in an argument does not constitute being "fake", perhaps you need to invest in a better dictionary.
let me say this once again....you are listening to a talk show dude.  thats like watching jerry springer to form an opinion.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7099|67.222.138.85
This is old news. NASA has already been experimenting with the X-Prize thingy, where it gives certain criteria and then gives away x dollars to the first person to meet the standards. It's how the first commercial space flight took place, and it's how other things such as the new astronaut's glove was incentivized. It's worked extremely well in the past, they would be stupid not to continue and expand the trend.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6682|Éire

11 Bravo wrote:

Braddock wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


by "fake" i mean you call those people idiots yet you listen to them sometimes to form an opinion?  then spout off some bs about what they say as a defense for something?  thats kind of fake if you ask me because i dont buy that you do that.  you are not dumb enough to watch a talk show and listen to that shit.  i think you say stuff like that to just fuck with lowing.
I'll say this again one more time for you... I listen to as many sides in an argument as possible before forming my opinions. Listening only to people who share the same views as you is not good practice if you are trying to be objective and think critically. Listening to the other side in an argument does not constitute being "fake", perhaps you need to invest in a better dictionary.
let me say this once again....you are listening to a talk show dude.  thats like watching jerry springer to form an opinion.
I have already said in this thread that I don't form my opinions based on other people's opinions, that would be retarded. I base my opinions on verifiable facts. I watch shows like the O'Reilly factor and Glenn Beck occasionally just to see how retarded the extreme opposite of my own political leaning is, if they throw up an actual fact or two then I'll consider it but other than that it's just for shits and giggles.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5750|London, England

Mekstizzle wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

"program"

the commercial sector already builds the shuttle.  private company loads the crew into the shuttle.  hell not much is govt anyway....except the budget ofc.

/in general inb4kmarion
The commercial sector builds the shuttle under contract from NASA who are themselves funded by the government. The only difference between a private company working for the government under contract, and a proper government company is the fact that the private company simply pockets more of the money for itself as profit. Yeah I know there's more to it than that, but that's basically how it is.

Nothing is really government except the budget/money. You can practically say that for government/nationalised companies too.
Government also creates artificial demand that may not exist. Once the company becomes private then the real demand will dictate interest, scheduling etc. Frankly, if privatizing NASA kills the US space program then they either marketed themselves poorly or there was no demand for their services in the first place. Judging by the number of satellites currently in our outer atmosphere, I think the program will be fine. Maybe.

The biggest question is how they will handle competition from foreign space programs without the subsidies they've been receiving up until now.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7099|67.222.138.85
how do you form an opinion based on a fact
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6993|132 and Bush

11 Bravo wrote:

"program"

the commercial sector already builds the shuttle.  private company loads the crew into the shuttle.  hell not much is govt anyway....except the budget ofc.

/in general inb4kmarion
No you're actually right here. NASA doesn't make rockets. NASA is one of the few programs that actually attempts to operate in budget.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6797|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

how do you form an opinion based on a fact
Uh...  are you being serious?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7099|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

how do you form an opinion based on a fact
Uh...  are you being serious?
completely
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6682|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

how do you form an opinion based on a fact
If I am assessing a news story I look for any verifiable facts that are available, I question how the facts are presented by the various news sources and then make my mind up accordingly. If there are very few facts available and just conjecture from media personalities I will either dismiss the story as media speculation until facts arise or form an uninformed 'half-opinion' based on the interpretation of media figures I have grown to recognise as somewhat reliable and trustworthy (however, in the case of the latter I would not kid myself that my opinion was informed as long as there were no verifiable facts on offer and would certainly not present it as evidence in an argument or debate).

For example if the Daily Mail ran a story about Muslim nurses not washing their hands in hospitals I would dismiss the story as nonsense until they presented something other than a handful of individual subjective accounts. I would want statements from hospital management, copies of legislation and regulations for hospital hygiene that showed Muslim nurses were allowed to not wash their hands, photographic or video evidence of the breaches taking place, and so on. I would not simply take the unverified word of the 'journalist' writing the column.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6797|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

how do you form an opinion based on a fact
Uh...  are you being serious?
completely
Well, I try to base most of my opinions on facts.  Usually I find this to be a practical thing.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7099|67.222.138.85

Braddock wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

how do you form an opinion based on a fact
For example if the Daily Mail ran a story about Muslim nurses not washing their hands in hospitals I would dismiss the story as nonsense until they presented something other than a handful of individual subjective accounts. I would want statements from hospital management, copies of legislation and regulations for hospital hygiene that showed Muslim nurses were allowed to not wash their hands, photographic or video evidence of the breaches taking place, and so on. I would not simply take the unverified word of the 'journalist' writing the column.
Where is the opinion in this?

You are talking about whether or not you trust the source about a fact. That's not coming up with an opinion about the fact.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Uh...  are you being serious?
completely
Well, I try to base most of my opinions on facts.  Usually I find this to be a practical thing.
example
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6682|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

how do you form an opinion based on a fact
For example if the Daily Mail ran a story about Muslim nurses not washing their hands in hospitals I would dismiss the story as nonsense until they presented something other than a handful of individual subjective accounts. I would want statements from hospital management, copies of legislation and regulations for hospital hygiene that showed Muslim nurses were allowed to not wash their hands, photographic or video evidence of the breaches taking place, and so on. I would not simply take the unverified word of the 'journalist' writing the column.
Where is the opinion in this?

You are talking about whether or not you trust the source about a fact. That's not coming up with an opinion about the fact.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


completely
Well, I try to base most of my opinions on facts.  Usually I find this to be a practical thing.
example
You're talking about baseless opinions.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7099|67.222.138.85
All opinions are baseless. If you want to try to give me a counter-example I can try to show you why.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6797|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

example
Coming to a conclusion regarding factual evidence is still an opinion.

For example, I assume that the quality of life for the average Norwegian is probably higher than the quality of life for the average American when you compare our scores on the HDI.

It's an opinion, but it's based on statistical facts that are used to generate the HDI score.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7099|67.222.138.85
That's like saying the opinion that the sky is blue is coming to a conclusion based on facts.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6797|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

That's like saying the opinion that the sky is blue is coming to a conclusion based on facts.
Well, I guess that depends on how you look at it...  literally.   Blue is both factually a color and a perception dependent on light.

For all practical purposes, the sky being blue is a fact.

To say that Norway has the best quality of life is an opinion, not a fact, but it can be a statement based on fact, like how I described it.

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