Yes, I know. But I was trying to give any "easy" scenario for John to find on the RoE. John?ruisleipa wrote:
Except they weren't confirmed 'hard targets'.Ilocano wrote:
Question regarding RoE. Command is authorized to ok the engagement of verified hard targets trying to take wounded away, while not under fire? Is that in the RoE manual? Just looking for clarification.
Indeed they did make the wrong call, but they broke no rules. Most soldiers in the army are like that, thats the whole point in soldiers, the system is designed to turn them into killers.Ilocano wrote:
Lied or not, they made the wrong call. That I can accept. But add the pilots comments about "waiting for him to pull out a weapon", and well, you can't deny that he was predisposed to make kills. As for the cover up, what is your take?Vilham wrote:
Whether or not it was a threat, the pilots had justification in thinking it was an AT, you claimed the pilots lied to their command which I just demonstrated they didn't. You are trying to claim the pilots lied, which is a blatant load of rubbish, the top of the US command made the cover up.Ilocano wrote:
Yeah, because an RPG at that range could take out an Apache.
I admit, that stance was stupid, but it is actually a very common photographic stance. I don't know about you, but I point my lens up when I'm in a crouched position between taking shots.
The pilots did nothing wrong.
I recon it was covered up because they knew it would get reported like this in the press and questions would be raised about the fact that soldiers are trained this way, something that the army needs to do.
It's stress/adrenaline. Judging what they said while sitting comfortably behind a computer is not fair.
But by all means judge what happened. It's why we have the FOIA. I doubt the Chinese would release footage like this. It's good to have a public awareness.
But by all means judge what happened. It's why we have the FOIA. I doubt the Chinese would release footage like this. It's good to have a public awareness.
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It wasn't released, it was covered-up.Kmarion wrote:
It's stress/adrenaline. Judging what they said while sitting comfortably behind a computer is not fair.
But by all means judge what happened. It's why we have the FOIA. I doubt the Chinese would release footage like this. It's good to have a public awareness.
Yes, stress, adrenaline, rage, revenge. Loss of "brothers", friends, buddies. All that gets to a soldier. Yes, they are killers. We train them to be. But they shouldn't lose their humanity. In the heat of battle, it shouldn't be "OK" to fire at will. There should be some degree of common sense. How often is friendly fire covered up? If stripped of humanity, would you want these trained killers walking your home streets, getting drunk at your local hangout, dating your sister/daughters?...Kmarion wrote:
It's stress/adrenaline. Judging what they said while sitting comfortably behind a computer is not fair.
But by all means judge what happened. It's why we have the FOIA. I doubt the Chinese would release footage like this. It's good to have a public awareness.
well i feel sick.
no remorse.
The only thing that really ticked me, was "haha, Look at all those dead bodies" --"Nice."
Scum like that should be removed from the planet. From all nations.
no remorse.
The only thing that really ticked me, was "haha, Look at all those dead bodies" --"Nice."
Scum like that should be removed from the planet. From all nations.
Last edited by tazz. (2010-04-05 15:52:24)
everything i write is a ramble and should not be taken seriously.... seriously. ♥
Qq
I never said it was just ok to fire at will. I was speaking to the point of what they said, and the laughter.. which is probably really why the pentagon didn't want to release this. Most people who have never experienced combat simply would not understand the emotional roller coaster. Testerone, the be all you can be, fuck you I'm better than enabler can show it's ugly side while communicating with your "brothers". It does not automatically equate to someone who is out of control.Ilocano wrote:
Yes, stress, adrenaline, rage, revenge. Loss of "brothers", friends, buddies. All that gets to a soldier. Yes, they are killers. We train them to be. But they shouldn't lose their humanity. In the heat of battle, it shouldn't be "OK" to fire at will. There should be some degree of common sense. How often is friendly fire covered up? If stripped of humanity, would you want these trained killers walking your home streets, getting drunk at your local hangout, dating your sister/daughters?...Kmarion wrote:
It's stress/adrenaline. Judging what they said while sitting comfortably behind a computer is not fair.
But by all means judge what happened. It's why we have the FOIA. I doubt the Chinese would release footage like this. It's good to have a public awareness.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
No kidding...eleven bravo wrote:
this outrage is funny coming from someone who denies the armenian genocide
And yet you play video games that highlight and glorify the same behavior. Kudos.tazz. wrote:
well i feel sick.
no remorse.
The only thing that really ticked me, was "haha, Look at all those dead bodies" --"Nice."
Scum like that should be removed from the planet. From all nations.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
No, it does not. But if it is not discouraged, discretion would lean toward shoot first, ask questions later. You really want a military like that?Kmarion wrote:
It does not automatically equate to someone who is out of control.
John, surely he can tell the difference between a game and actually taking someones life. I've suicided a J-10 into my own teammates for a laugh.. does that mean I advocate this irl?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
dresden was p.chill
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Why is that?Ilocano wrote:
No, it does not. But if it is not discouraged, discretion would lean toward shoot first, ask questions later. You really want a military like that?Kmarion wrote:
It does not automatically equate to someone who is out of control.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Holy Shit. Some one discovered wars are ugly, horrible and sloppy. Lines are blurred. Shit happens. I'm sorry -but first, if my neighborhood is in the middle of a combat zone, you won't catch me roving the streets with a band of ARMED men. I saw at least one AK. They reported being fired on. Fuck that. GG USA.
Also screw this source. Tons of footage has been omitted and even admittedly doctored er' unencrypted. Zoom on the kiddies? Yea, I saw a blob.
Maybe their ideology doesn't allow for diplomacy -So as our bad-ass helicopters have to go in and..... Wait I've got a better idea. We'll change out the Warrant Officer and put a PR guy in there. That way, next time they can land, the PR guy can jump out and go ask the individuals what they're doing. Then, he'll run back to the helicopter, tell the pilot who will call his CO for a decision.
The pilots did nothing wrong.
What I think really happened is bad ass photo guys show up in town, and a few local idiots find out what he up to. They agree to or unwittingly opt to 'show off' for a photo shot or two that will be shown around the world to everyone convincing all that the USA is the 'great satan'. In their bravado/stupidity they fire on that tiny helicopter way far away (crap, what's it going to do -right?).
Also screw this source. Tons of footage has been omitted and even admittedly doctored er' unencrypted. Zoom on the kiddies? Yea, I saw a blob.
Maybe their ideology doesn't allow for diplomacy -So as our bad-ass helicopters have to go in and..... Wait I've got a better idea. We'll change out the Warrant Officer and put a PR guy in there. That way, next time they can land, the PR guy can jump out and go ask the individuals what they're doing. Then, he'll run back to the helicopter, tell the pilot who will call his CO for a decision.
The pilots did nothing wrong.
What I think really happened is bad ass photo guys show up in town, and a few local idiots find out what he up to. They agree to or unwittingly opt to 'show off' for a photo shot or two that will be shown around the world to everyone convincing all that the USA is the 'great satan'. In their bravado/stupidity they fire on that tiny helicopter way far away (crap, what's it going to do -right?).
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
So, "you won't get in trouble, no matter the collateral damage", won't impair someone's judgement call? And later, overall mental judgement?Kmarion wrote:
Why is that?Ilocano wrote:
No, it does not. But if it is not discouraged, discretion would lean toward shoot first, ask questions later. You really want a military like that?Kmarion wrote:
It does not automatically equate to someone who is out of control.
Video games reflect life and vice versa, especially when dealing with 'realistic' war simulations. We aren't instilled with a moral code that gives us our 'humanity', we take our social cues from society itself. To cheer when one does their job well is normal. It doesn't matter if it's flipping burgers or firing a 30mm chaingun, if you do your job well, you will get a sense of pride. If watching war videos and hearing men cheering the death of another makes you squeamish, don't watch them, hide from life and reality.Kmarion wrote:
John, surely he can tell the difference between a game and actually taking someones life. I've suicided a J-10 into my own teammates for a laugh.. does that mean I advocate this irl?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
That's what you get for sneaking around corners in a warzone.
I don't feel sorry for any of the casuals, over and out.
I don't feel sorry for any of the casuals, over and out.
Sarcasm?JohnG@lt wrote:
Video games reflect life and vice versa, especially when dealing with 'realistic' war simulations.
Yes we take our cues from the majority of real world experience. No rationale person looks to a video game to learn right and wrong. I do not believe that video game experience desensitizes anyone to the reality of war. No one walks into a recruiting office and says I've taken life before based on their COD4 experience. No normal person at least. There is a very real difference and I am absolutely sure you understand that.JohnG@lt wrote:
Video games reflect life and vice versa, especially when dealing with 'realistic' war simulations. We aren't instilled with a moral code that gives us our 'humanity', we take our social cues from society itself. To cheer when one does their job well is normal. It doesn't matter if it's flipping burgers or firing a 30mm chaingun, if you do your job well, you will get a sense of pride. If watching war videos and hearing men cheering the death of another makes you squeamish, don't watch them, hide from life and reality.Kmarion wrote:
John, surely he can tell the difference between a game and actually taking someones life. I've suicided a J-10 into my own teammates for a laugh.. does that mean I advocate this irl?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I do understand it completely but I don't think you are grasping the fact that the vast majority of soldiers play or have played video games, including war simulation games. It's not out of the scope of reality to expect a soldier to shout the same things he has heard in a video game. Things like "Get some" etc. In fact, it would be expected, since those phrases came from real life first and have been passed down through the ranks over generations. I bet if video footage had been taken of a marine squad in a similar situation those viewing, it such as those here in DST, would find their behavior to be even less 'professional'.Kmarion wrote:
Yes we take our cues from the majority of real world experience. No rationale person looks to a video game to learn right and wrong. I do not believe that video game experience desensitizes anyone to the reality of war. No one walks into a recruiting office and says I've taken life before based on their COD4 experience. No normal person at least. There is a very real difference and I am absolutely sure you understand that.JohnG@lt wrote:
Video games reflect life and vice versa, especially when dealing with 'realistic' war simulations. We aren't instilled with a moral code that gives us our 'humanity', we take our social cues from society itself. To cheer when one does their job well is normal. It doesn't matter if it's flipping burgers or firing a 30mm chaingun, if you do your job well, you will get a sense of pride. If watching war videos and hearing men cheering the death of another makes you squeamish, don't watch them, hide from life and reality.Kmarion wrote:
John, surely he can tell the difference between a game and actually taking someones life. I've suicided a J-10 into my own teammates for a laugh.. does that mean I advocate this irl?
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-04-05 16:38:36)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
This thread is fucking bullshit. The only thing that was done wrong was the Army tried to cover it up. I can see why they did, it's bad for moral amongst the troops, the people at home, and not to mention the negative effect it has on the Iraqi people and increases support for the insurgency. That said, it should have been reported as it happened.
Some of the casualties were armed, they were on a route where Hummvees were travelling so the natural thing is to assume it's an ambush, which it might well have been. If the reporter is going to embed with the enemy he has to expect a few rounds to get thrown his way.
What I want to know is though, why wasn't he wearing a flak jacket marked PRESS, and why wasn't the van marked either? Had that been the case, whether or not they'd have recognised him as a reporter the van would have been allowed to exfil without being fired upon.
Some of the casualties were armed, they were on a route where Hummvees were travelling so the natural thing is to assume it's an ambush, which it might well have been. If the reporter is going to embed with the enemy he has to expect a few rounds to get thrown his way.
What I want to know is though, why wasn't he wearing a flak jacket marked PRESS, and why wasn't the van marked either? Had that been the case, whether or not they'd have recognised him as a reporter the van would have been allowed to exfil without being fired upon.
Real world experience. My point exactly. Plenty of ex-soldiers become policemen. Taking collateral damage experience, would you want a policemen that has been conditioned to know that their are no consequences to collateral damage that then thinks some civilian loss is acceptable when taking down a criminal?Kmarion wrote:
Yes we take our cues from the majority of real world experience. No rationale person looks to a video game to learn right and wrong. I do not believe that video game experience desensitizes anyone to the reality of war. No one walks into a recruiting office and says I've taken life before based on their COD4 experience. No normal person at least. There is a very real difference and I am absolutely sure you understand that.JohnG@lt wrote:
Video games reflect life and vice versa, especially when dealing with 'realistic' war simulations. We aren't instilled with a moral code that gives us our 'humanity', we take our social cues from society itself. To cheer when one does their job well is normal. It doesn't matter if it's flipping burgers or firing a 30mm chaingun, if you do your job well, you will get a sense of pride. If watching war videos and hearing men cheering the death of another makes you squeamish, don't watch them, hide from life and reality.Kmarion wrote:
John, surely he can tell the difference between a game and actually taking someones life. I've suicided a J-10 into my own teammates for a laugh.. does that mean I advocate this irl?
Wow. Bottom-of-the-barrel stuff from certain members here (ruislepa in particular)
Send it to an investigation. If ROE was followed and executed properly then I see no reason for further prosecution.
Send it to an investigation. If ROE was followed and executed properly then I see no reason for further prosecution.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
They've been shouting those things (which I've explained is understandable) for generations, long before video games. There is a distinguishable line between laughing at a game and the reality of someone rolling over a real person. Laughing in a game, and not laughing at it in a real situation is not hypocritical. I gathered that was your implication with Taz.JohnG@lt wrote:
I do understand it completely but I don't think you are grasping the fact that the vast majority of soldiers play or have played video games, including war simulation games. It's not out of the scope of reality to expect a soldier to shout the same things he has heard in a video game. Things like "Get some" etc. In fact, it would be expected, since those phrases came from real life first and have been passed down through the ranks over generations. I bet if video footage had been taken of a marine squad in a similar situation those viewing, it such as those here in DST, would find their behavior to be even less 'professional'.Kmarion wrote:
Yes we take our cues from the majority of real world experience. No rationale person looks to a video game to learn right and wrong. I do not believe that video game experience desensitizes anyone to the reality of war. No one walks into a recruiting office and says I've taken life before based on their COD4 experience. No normal person at least. There is a very real difference and I am absolutely sure you understand that.JohnG@lt wrote:
Video games reflect life and vice versa, especially when dealing with 'realistic' war simulations. We aren't instilled with a moral code that gives us our 'humanity', we take our social cues from society itself. To cheer when one does their job well is normal. It doesn't matter if it's flipping burgers or firing a 30mm chaingun, if you do your job well, you will get a sense of pride. If watching war videos and hearing men cheering the death of another makes you squeamish, don't watch them, hide from life and reality.
Xbone Stormsurgezz