Pages: 1 … 5 6 7 8

 

2010-05-23 16:24:58
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6796|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Didn't seem to be a problem for 60 years before govt. involvment and the desire make homes available to all regardless of being able to afford one. It was a result of regulation that brought us down. Banks were forced to loan money they knew they would not get back for the most part. Give the loans or face the wrath of govt.
Well, implementing ARMs was a great way to force people to default on loans en masse.  Had ARMs not been involved, far fewer defaults would have occurred.  Nothing about the CRA required the use of ARMs -- that was all on the companies for that part.

Still, the culture of Wall Street has changed a lot in 60 years.  With or without regulation, people are looking for a quick buck these days.  They don't have the patience for long term growth, which is why the stock market is starting to look more like Vegas.

The point is...  you can't assume that the CRA alone caused all this.  I'm not saying the market alone did either.
2010-05-23 16:37:15
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7042|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Didn't seem to be a problem for 60 years before govt. involvment and the desire make homes available to all regardless of being able to afford one. It was a result of regulation that brought us down. Banks were forced to loan money they knew they would not get back for the most part. Give the loans or face the wrath of govt.
Well, implementing ARMs was a great way to force people to default on loans en masse.  Had ARMs not been involved, far fewer defaults would have occurred.  Nothing about the CRA required the use of ARMs -- that was all on the companies for that part.

Still, the culture of Wall Street has changed a lot in 60 years.  With or without regulation, people are looking for a quick buck these days.  They don't have the patience for long term growth, which is why the stock market is starting to look more like Vegas.

The point is...  you can't assume that the CRA alone caused all this.  I'm not saying the market alone did either.
Well, I am gunna disagree with that, this started as a result of govt. involvment, regardless as to what has happened since, with everyone scrambling, govt. started this.
2010-05-23 16:47:01
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6992|132 and Bush

Amazing. A chunk of the world is literally being destroyed and we've got responses that amount to "get over it". How 'bout you fellas go get lost. Permanently. No one has the right to gamble on this scale. They were basically betting that getting sued would be cheaper than proper safety. You can't self regulate that. When you're wrong everyone pays.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-05-23 16:57:06
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6972|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Kmarion wrote:

They were basically betting that getting sued would be cheaper than proper safety.
yep, fines and lawsuits are just a cost of doing business.
2010-05-23 17:02:46
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6992|132 and Bush

Reciprocity wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

They were basically betting that getting sued would be cheaper than proper safety.
yep, fines and lawsuits are just a cost of doing business.
and 11 dead bodies.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-05-23 17:05:32
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5570|Sydney
Collateral damage tbh.

You're right of course, self regulation never works well when it comes to big business, as evidenced by the GFC. Big business is simply far too opportunistic and focussed solely on making as much money as possible. Except in this instance there is no bailout, so instead it's the blame game, with the most innocent being the biggest loser (the environment, the workers, other industries).

Last edited by Jaekus (2010-05-23 17:07:25)

2010-05-23 17:17:13
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6972|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Kmarion wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

They were basically betting that getting sued would be cheaper than proper safety.
yep, fines and lawsuits are just a cost of doing business.
and 11 dead bodies.
Those are probably the cheapest part.  a few hundred thousand to the families with some good contractual binding.  done and done.
2010-05-23 19:41:32
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7066|Canberra, AUS

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Jesus christ, get off your high horse. You drive a car don't you?
I will as soon as you stop coming up with unrealistic excuses for the greed and negligence of big business.
Wtf does greed have to do with this oil spill?

My brother explained it to me quite well. When they're set to cap off a well, they fill the drill pipe with concrete, which sinks down through the drilling mud that they use to displace the sea water and oil. When the concrete hardens, it forms a plug and the well is capped. Then they bring in an extraction rig somewhere down the road, drill through the plug and free the oil for pumping. In the case of the Deepwater Horizon, they emptied the drill pipe of drilling mud before pouring in the concrete and replaced it with sea water. Since oil, and especially natural gas, is lighter than water, it came pouring out of the well up through the pipe and forced the water out in front of it destroying all electronics on deck, including the 'deadmans switch'. Natural gas formed pools on deck since it is heavier than air and was sparked which produced the explosion and sank the rig.

They made one mistake in the entire grand scheme of things which was dumping the drilling mud before the cap set. Why they did that I don't know. Maybe the Captain or the drilling mate were trying to impress his boss with the speed of the job. We'll find out at the inquest for the Captain and the drilling mate is dead so he'll keep his secrets.

Nowhere in this entire equation do I see anything caused by greed. We need oil to sustain our way of life, they pump oil for a living. What exactly is wrong with this? It's also quite ridiculous that BP is getting hammered so hard because one of the crew members on a sub-contracted vessel made the wrong decision... but that's another topic. As with all things when blame is being thrown around, it's the man standing there with the deepest pockets that will get the lions share from the herd of jackals we call trial lawyers.
I certainly see a logical pathway from greed to the events. Pressure from above leading to reckless speed?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-05-23 20:57:55
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5749|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, putting politically connected individuals in charge of industries they do not understand is the way to go. Worked out well for FEMA.
Well, you're assuming that we can't put people in charge without conflicts of interest and who actually know what they're doing.
If they know what they are doing then they will be in the industry making more money than they'll ever make working for the government. There are no white knights.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-05-23 21:02:40
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5749|London, England

Spark wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


I will as soon as you stop coming up with unrealistic excuses for the greed and negligence of big business.
Wtf does greed have to do with this oil spill?

My brother explained it to me quite well. When they're set to cap off a well, they fill the drill pipe with concrete, which sinks down through the drilling mud that they use to displace the sea water and oil. When the concrete hardens, it forms a plug and the well is capped. Then they bring in an extraction rig somewhere down the road, drill through the plug and free the oil for pumping. In the case of the Deepwater Horizon, they emptied the drill pipe of drilling mud before pouring in the concrete and replaced it with sea water. Since oil, and especially natural gas, is lighter than water, it came pouring out of the well up through the pipe and forced the water out in front of it destroying all electronics on deck, including the 'deadmans switch'. Natural gas formed pools on deck since it is heavier than air and was sparked which produced the explosion and sank the rig.

They made one mistake in the entire grand scheme of things which was dumping the drilling mud before the cap set. Why they did that I don't know. Maybe the Captain or the drilling mate were trying to impress his boss with the speed of the job. We'll find out at the inquest for the Captain and the drilling mate is dead so he'll keep his secrets.

Nowhere in this entire equation do I see anything caused by greed. We need oil to sustain our way of life, they pump oil for a living. What exactly is wrong with this? It's also quite ridiculous that BP is getting hammered so hard because one of the crew members on a sub-contracted vessel made the wrong decision... but that's another topic. As with all things when blame is being thrown around, it's the man standing there with the deepest pockets that will get the lions share from the herd of jackals we call trial lawyers.
I certainly see a logical pathway from greed to the events. Pressure from above leading to reckless speed?
That's less about greed and way more about wanting to show off in front of ones bosses.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-05-23 21:14:15
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6972|the dank(super) side of Oregon

JohnG@lt wrote:

That's less about greed and way more about wanting to show off in front of ones bosses.
And he wouldn't be impressing his boss to advance his own career?  cutting corners to get ahead?  perhaps it's not all out greed, but, once again, someone was looking to get ahead without considering the long term consequences. 

not too different than some executive on wall street.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2010-05-23 21:15:03)

2010-05-23 21:16:19
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5749|London, England

Reciprocity wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

That's less about greed and way more about wanting to show off in front of ones bosses.
And he wouldn't be impressing his boss to advance his own career?  cutting corners to get ahead?  perhaps it's not all out greed, but, once again, someone was looking to get ahead without considering the long term consequences. 

not too different than some executive on wall street.
It's just a case of overconfidence. "I've done this a million times" etc. If there's anything the military taught me, it's that you don't cut corners because there will be pain if you do.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-05-23 21:23:59
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6972|the dank(super) side of Oregon
well, I hope that guys overconfidence costs these companies a painful amount of money.
2010-05-23 21:24:37
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5749|London, England

Reciprocity wrote:

well, I hope that guys overconfidence costs these companies a painful amount of money.
It cost him his life.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-05-23 21:27:13
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6972|the dank(super) side of Oregon

JohnG@lt wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

well, I hope that guys overconfidence costs these companies a painful amount of money.
It cost him his life.
yeah, he's gone, oh well.  he killed ten of his buddies. 

doesn't mean these companies shouldn't bleed green.
2010-05-23 21:29:47
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5749|London, England

Reciprocity wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

well, I hope that guys overconfidence costs these companies a painful amount of money.
It cost him his life.
yeah, he's gone, oh well.  he killed ten of his buddies. 

doesn't mean these companies shouldn't bleed green.
Sure they should. I just dislike the fact that all the oil company haters feel somehow vindicated for their disdain now. Bunch of hypocritical morons.

They were annoyingly smug previously, now they'll be assured that they are in the right (even though they're not). Cap and Trade is next, watch.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-05-23 21:30:47)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-05-23 21:35:17
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5977

JohnG@lt wrote:

Sure they should. I just dislike the fact that all the oil company haters feel somehow vindicated for their disdain now. Bunch of hypocritical morons.

They were annoyingly smug previously, now they'll be assured that they are in the right (even though they're not). Cap and Trade is next, watch.
Don't mean to derail but it's sorta like the antiwar activist and the Iraq death count.

You could get the feeling that every time the amount of U.S. killed in Iraq went up the antiwar activist celebrated a bit. Not for the fact of the troops dying but because it would have helped to bring the war to an end quicker or proved that Iraq was a a clusterfuck.

Just a thought.
2010-05-23 21:47:53
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5749|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Sure they should. I just dislike the fact that all the oil company haters feel somehow vindicated for their disdain now. Bunch of hypocritical morons.

They were annoyingly smug previously, now they'll be assured that they are in the right (even though they're not). Cap and Trade is next, watch.
Don't mean to derail but it's sorta like the antiwar activist and the Iraq death count.

You could get the feeling that every time the amount of U.S. killed in Iraq went up the antiwar activist celebrated a bit. Not for the fact of the troops dying but because it would have helped to bring the war to an end quicker or proved that Iraq was a a clusterfuck.

Just a thought.
And the anti-war protesters have had fuck all impact on how the wars have been fought. We're still in both places even after a regime change.

The oil company haters can yap away all they want about solar, wind, fusion etc but they'd balk at the price they'd have to pay to do a full conversion and cry when the power browned out and they lost internet connectivity to their iMac. I despise people who base their opinions and beliefs on emotion.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-05-23 22:10:47
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6796|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Sure they should. I just dislike the fact that all the oil company haters feel somehow vindicated for their disdain now. Bunch of hypocritical morons.

They were annoyingly smug previously, now they'll be assured that they are in the right (even though they're not). Cap and Trade is next, watch.
Don't mean to derail but it's sorta like the antiwar activist and the Iraq death count.

You could get the feeling that every time the amount of U.S. killed in Iraq went up the antiwar activist celebrated a bit. Not for the fact of the troops dying but because it would have helped to bring the war to an end quicker or proved that Iraq was a a clusterfuck.

Just a thought.
And the anti-war protesters have had fuck all impact on how the wars have been fought. We're still in both places even after a regime change.

The oil company haters can yap away all they want about solar, wind, fusion etc but they'd balk at the price they'd have to pay to do a full conversion and cry when the power browned out and they lost internet connectivity to their iMac. I despise people who base their opinions and beliefs on emotion.
There's a certain irony to saying that you despise people who base their opinions on emotion.  Perhaps, you should rephrase that.
2010-05-23 22:14:26
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6796|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, putting politically connected individuals in charge of industries they do not understand is the way to go. Worked out well for FEMA.
Well, you're assuming that we can't put people in charge without conflicts of interest and who actually know what they're doing.
If they know what they are doing then they will be in the industry making more money than they'll ever make working for the government. There are no white knights.
Well, your last sentence might possibly be true, but if it is...  well, then it really doesn't matter.

I mean, if we are to believe that it's all simply about profit and nothing to do with the common good, well, who cares about the pollution, or corruption for that matter?

Everyone fends for themselves, and if that prevents you from getting yours, well, to hell with you.

Survival of the fittest most ruthless. 
2010-05-23 22:16:33
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7066|Canberra, AUS

JohnG@lt wrote:

Spark wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Wtf does greed have to do with this oil spill?

My brother explained it to me quite well. When they're set to cap off a well, they fill the drill pipe with concrete, which sinks down through the drilling mud that they use to displace the sea water and oil. When the concrete hardens, it forms a plug and the well is capped. Then they bring in an extraction rig somewhere down the road, drill through the plug and free the oil for pumping. In the case of the Deepwater Horizon, they emptied the drill pipe of drilling mud before pouring in the concrete and replaced it with sea water. Since oil, and especially natural gas, is lighter than water, it came pouring out of the well up through the pipe and forced the water out in front of it destroying all electronics on deck, including the 'deadmans switch'. Natural gas formed pools on deck since it is heavier than air and was sparked which produced the explosion and sank the rig.

They made one mistake in the entire grand scheme of things which was dumping the drilling mud before the cap set. Why they did that I don't know. Maybe the Captain or the drilling mate were trying to impress his boss with the speed of the job. We'll find out at the inquest for the Captain and the drilling mate is dead so he'll keep his secrets.

Nowhere in this entire equation do I see anything caused by greed. We need oil to sustain our way of life, they pump oil for a living. What exactly is wrong with this? It's also quite ridiculous that BP is getting hammered so hard because one of the crew members on a sub-contracted vessel made the wrong decision... but that's another topic. As with all things when blame is being thrown around, it's the man standing there with the deepest pockets that will get the lions share from the herd of jackals we call trial lawyers.
I certainly see a logical pathway from greed to the events. Pressure from above leading to reckless speed?
That's less about greed and way more about wanting to show off in front of ones bosses.
I'm not talking about showing off. I'm talking about pressure being applied from the bosses to get-it-done, leading to shortcuts.

Of course I'm not saying this has happened at all, but it's a possibility.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-05-23 22:17:15
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6796|North Carolina

Spark wrote:

I'm not talking about showing off. I'm talking about pressure being applied from the bosses to get-it-done, leading to shortcuts.

Of course I'm not saying this has happened at all, but it's a possibility.
Surely, it couldn't be that.  That would never happen. 
2010-05-23 22:22:58
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7076|United States of America
Still going strong, it apperas.
2010-05-23 22:23:04
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6972|the dank(super) side of Oregon

galt wrote:

Sure they should. I just dislike the fact that all the oil company haters feel somehow vindicated for their disdain now. Bunch of hypocritical morons.
I'm not really an "oil company hater".  I hate that we live in a world where oil companies need to exist.  I hate that our entire world economy is based on a finite, poisonous liquid.  I hate that it gives animals in the middle east, africa, south america and russia, money and power they shouldn't have. 

Why hate oil companies?  They'll cut corners, buy politicians, destroy whatever they can to get what we need so they can get what they want.  oil is a filthy, degenarate business.  Hating the companies is pointless, they're all fucking scum because that's their nature.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2010-05-23 22:25:31)

2010-05-23 22:31:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5749|London, England

Reciprocity wrote:

galt wrote:

Sure they should. I just dislike the fact that all the oil company haters feel somehow vindicated for their disdain now. Bunch of hypocritical morons.
I'm not really an "oil company hater".  I hate that we live in a world where oil companies need to exist.  I hate that our entire world economy is based on a finite, poisonous liquid.  I hate that it gives animals in the middle east, africa, south america and russia, money and power they shouldn't have. 

Why hate oil companies?  They'll cut corners, buy politicians, destroy whatever they can to get what we need so they can get what they want.  oil is a filthy, degenarate business.  Hating the companies is pointless, they're all fucking scum because that's their nature.
Well, you live in the right state for it so what's stopping you from running off into the forest, going off the grid and joining a hippie commune?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

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