BF2S Forums More Rich Americans Renounce U.S. Citizenship for Lower Taxes

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Uzique wrote:

india rapes kashmir every single day and nobody does a thing. imo europe is the last place in the modern-world you need to be 'world policing' in order to maintain order and civility. we've had our share of empire, had our fair share of war and our fair share of brutal humanity. i think one of europe's last interests is any more conflict on our own grounds.

Western Europe is fine.  Eastern Europe is really the only cause for worry.  For various reasons, the Balkans have always been a "powderkeg" throughout history.  Granted, things seem to be better now.  Greece's economy is fucked though.

But I would agree that India and Pakistan are far more worrisome than any of Europe.  So is most of Africa, the Middle East, Burma, Thailand, Indonesia, Venezuela, Colombia, etc...

And none of it is our problem.

Depends on the situation...  Sometimes it is...  sometimes it isn't.   Because we're trying to remain allies with Pakistan, we have it in our best interests to encourage India and Pakistan to broker a truce.

Venezuela is a concern because we buy a lot of oil from them.  Colombia is a concern because they import a lot of illegal drugs into the U.S.

Burma isn't our problem, nor is Thailand.  Indonesia is only a problem in the sense that many terror groups are located there.  Obviously, this isn't a reason to fight them as a country, but we may want to consider helping their government if they request help.

The Balkans become our problem if another Bosnia style conflict occurs.  If the world pressures us to intervene with their approval, then we may choose to intervene if it meets our interests diplomatically or economically.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Nice job falling into the trap I set Turquoise. American hubris at its finest

It's not a matter of arrogance -- it's a matter of realism and pragmatism.

And you would sacrifice the lives of American soldiers needlessly based on some idealistic moral stance. This is why I only vote for war vets.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Nice job falling into the trap I set Turquoise. American hubris at its finest

It's not a matter of arrogance -- it's a matter of realism and pragmatism.

And you would sacrifice the lives of American soldiers needlessly based on some idealistic moral stance. This is why I only vote for war vets.

....or economic reasons as well.   All war is a sacrifice of lives, both enlisted and civilians.  That much is inevitable.

All that matters are the reasoning behind a war, the implementation, and the goals.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Uzique wrote:

america could learn a lot from scandinavian 'socialist mediocrity' when it comes to living standards...

My living standard is quite nice, thanks.

Uzique, can a foreigner with just enough native language skill to survive, go from rags to millionaire in your country?  In the US, that ability still stands true.

Dealt a bum card?  Well, get off your ass, and do something about it.  In America (USA), you can do something about it.

with all these people renouncing their citizenship ...... couldn't they just trade out with some mexican coming over the border

Macbeth wrote:

So if you came into a large amount of money and the government was going to take a big chunk of it would you renounce your citizenship and move? I don't think I would since I really have no where to go.

That's just it. Unless you're facing this situation and know the exact parameters, You just don't know. Personally, I haven't been doing a whole lot of research into where else I'd like to live, because I love it in the US (and still do). But everyone has a breaking point.

Turquoise wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Uzique, can a foreigner with just enough native language skill to survive, go from rags to millionaire in your country?  In the US, that ability still stands true.

Dealt a bum card?  Well, get off your ass, and do something about it.  In America (USA), you can do something about it.

It stands true, but it's also exceedingly rare.

However, going from rags to riches isn't solely an American virtue.  The Russian billionaire Mikhail Prokhorov started as a working class citizen.  So did the Mexican billionaire Carlos Slim.

Regardless of country, the vast majority of the elite rich are people who began with a decent amount of money.  Bill Gates wasn't exactly poor when he started.

While personal ambition certainly helps in becoming wealthy, it is no guarantee.  Most businesses fail.  Most people who strive to be rich either survive as a working class or middle class person.   Getting rich is the exception, not the rule.

Some of the reason for this is due to bad choices, but in other cases, it's just bad genes or bad luck.  Too much of life is outside of your control as an individual to assume that all of success or failure is your fault.

We're not talking about the top 1%. Reaching that high is bound to leave you short. No, what ilocano is saying is that there really is no reason to be poor in this country unless you just don't care. It's exceedingly easy to reach and maintain a comfortable, high end, lifestyle as long as you plan ahead and aren't a waste of a slot at work.

I mean shit, the guy that works the deli counter at the market I frequent busts his ass. He was a chemical engineer back in South Korea, came here, worked hard and then got into commercial real estate. He works at the deli when his business is slow (and he owns it). Is he popping champagne at every meal and taking caviar baths? No, but he's damned successful and he's set his kids up for success inside of a single generation. My hats off to a guy like him.

On the other end of the spectrum you've got people like my uncles (mom's side) who grew up here poor to an immigrant father and instead of applying themselves and trying to be better off than he was, they're all stuck working manual labor jobs (or are semi-permanently unemployed) because they chose to party their way through life instead of applying themselves. Thank god they all married women smarter than themselves and their kids (my cousins) are pretty much all college educated now with bright futures (though the girls gravitate towards teaching ).

The difference between living paycheck to paycheck in this country and living comfortably is simply due to picking the correct path, laying out a plan, getting educated and then working hard to fulfill your plan. It's certainly not rocket science.

And again, I'm not talking Bill Gates rich here.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

We're not talking about the top 1%. Reaching that high is bound to leave you short. No, what ilocano is saying is that there really is no reason to be poor in this country unless you just don't care. It's exceedingly easy to reach and maintain a comfortable, high end, lifestyle as long as you plan ahead and aren't a waste of a slot at work.

Comfortable, yes.  High end, no.  Then again, comfortable is subjective.  I'm comfortable with being working class or middle class.  Some people aren't comfortable even while wealthy.

JohnG@lt wrote:

I mean shit, the guy that works the deli counter at the market I frequent busts his ass. He was a chemical engineer back in South Korea, came here, worked hard and then got into commercial real estate. He works at the deli when his business is slow (and he owns it). Is he popping champagne at every meal and taking caviar baths? No, but he's damned successful and he's set his kids up for success inside of a single generation. My hats off to a guy like him.

Hey, I'm not putting down hard work.  All I'm saying is that not everything is under your control.

JohnG@lt wrote:

On the other end of the spectrum you've got people like my uncles (mom's side) who grew up here poor to an immigrant father and instead of applying themselves and trying to be better off than he was, they're all stuck working manual labor jobs (or are semi-permanently unemployed) because they chose to party their way through life instead of applying themselves. Thank god they all married women smarter than themselves and their kids (my cousins) are pretty much all college educated now with bright futures (though the girls gravitate towards teaching ).

The difference between living paycheck to paycheck in this country and living comfortably is simply due to picking the correct path, laying out a plan, getting educated and then working hard to fulfill your plan. It's certainly not rocket science.

And again, I'm not talking Bill Gates rich here.

You're right that it isn't rocket science.  For the most part, hard work will certainly better your chances at success, but as eleven mentioned, so does knowing the right people.

By the same token, other things can still ruin your chances that are out of your control, like inheriting a degenerative disease or being severely injured in a car accident.

The point is...  a social safety net is a good thing to help people get back on their feet.  Yes, reforms are always needed, but that doesn't negate the worth of social programs.

Your social safety net is and should be your own family or alternatively, your church if you are religious.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-07-28 16:39:22)

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Your social safety net is and should be your own family or alternatively, your church if you are religious.

Things are rarely the way they "should" be.  We tried this particular route a long time ago, and it didn't work.

Sure it did, and still does. Just do like the Italians do and have several generations under the same roof. I happen to admire the fact that they don't toss their parents into old folks homes or ship them off to Florida. Family is important, and so is maintaining the wisdom and life experience that a person has gained throughout their lifetime and passing it on. I plan on taking care of my mother in the very same way and in return I will ask her to do for my kids what my grandmother did for me, be a personal tutor and get them started on their education early while I'm off working.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Things are rarely the way they "should" be.  We tried this particular route a long time ago, and it didn't work.

Sure it did, and still does. Just do like the Italians do and have several generations under the same roof. I happen to admire the fact that they don't toss their parents into old folks homes or ship them off to Florida. Family is important, and so is maintaining the wisdom and life experience that a person has gained throughout their lifetime and passing it on. I plan on taking care of my mother in the very same way and in return I will ask her to do for my kids what my grandmother did for me, be a personal tutor and get them started on their education early while I'm off working.

I'll put it this way, if our culture was more universally like that, I'd agree with you.  Right now, however, dropping social programs would lead to a lot of problems.

Only because people have become dependent on them. They're a problem simply because they were brought into existence in the first place without a real need. People were fine before the government started meddling.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Your social safety net is and should be your own family or alternatively, your church if you are religious.

Things are rarely the way they "should" be.  We tried this particular route a long time ago, and it didn't work.

Sure it did, and still does. Just do like the Italians do and have several generations under the same roof. I happen to admire the fact that they don't toss their parents into old folks homes or ship them off to Florida. Family is important, and so is maintaining the wisdom and life experience that a person has gained throughout their lifetime and passing it on. I plan on taking care of my mother in the very same way and in return I will ask her to do for my kids what my grandmother did for me, be a personal tutor and get them started on their education early while I'm off working.

Damn, two for two today John.

Completely agree.  Family social safety net.  Building on and building on from prior generations.  Helping each other out.  Not throwing the kids out once they reach 18.  Not sending parents to nursing homes.  Make sacrifices for the next generation. 

Although it's predominantly the Asians on the West Coast, I know a few working class Mexican families who own their own family businesses, working there asses off especially on weekends, and manage to send their kids to private school, and on to schools like USC.  I can't count the times my son is disappointed in a cancelled get together with his friend for the weekend, because his friend has to help out with the family business.

Yes, there are emergencies unforseen situations, but you plan for them.  Same as John, I know a few High School friends who chose the party, spend beyond your means, and work enough to support your lifestyle route.  They are pretty much working dead end jobs.   And then there are those friends who applied themselves and are now doctors, dentists, engineers, chemists, military officers, corporate directors, VP's, etc...

*sigh*  well...  I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, John.