Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|6031

Use this as an introduction to this discussion.

So how do you feel about multiculturalism as described in the link? I most agree with the Cosmopolitan view of culture.

Some critics contend that the multicultural argument for the preservation of cultures is premised on a problematic view of culture and of the individual's relationship to culture. Cultures are not distinct, self-contained wholes; they have long interacted and influenced one another through war, imperialism, trade, and migration. People in many parts of the world live within cultures that are already cosmopolitan, characterized by cultural hybridity. As Jeremy Waldron (1995, 100) argues, “We live in a world formed by technology and trade; by economic, religious, and political imperialism and their offspring; by mass migration and the dispersion of cultural influences. In this context, to immerse oneself in the traditional practices of, say, an aboriginal culture might be a fascinating anthropological experiment, but it involves an artificial dislocation from what actually is going on in the world.” To aim at preserving or protecting a culture runs the risk of privileging one allegedly pure version of that culture, thereby crippling its ability to adapt to changes in circumstances (Waldron 1995, 110; see also Benhabib 2002 and Scheffler 2007). Waldron also rejects the premise that the options available to an individual must come from a particular culture; meaningful options may come from a variety of cultural sources. What people need are cultural materials, not access to a particular cultural structure.

Last edited by Macbeth (2010-10-03 21:03:11)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7120|Canberra, AUS
Without having read the link (I will do though) I would say multiculturalism has worked wonderfully well here.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|6445|Vortex Ring State
multiculturalism aids preserving individual cultures, period. Uniculturalism does not
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6851|North Carolina
In some respects, there is a natural selection aspect to culture.

Technology tends to weed out primitive cultures and primitive belief systems.

On the other hand, primitive cultures tend to have people that breed more often.  This is a problem with regard to poverty and because primitive cultures tend to be less adaptive to concepts like civil liberties.

Probably the most blatant clash we've seen in recent years is the primitive stance that a lot of Islamic culture has regarding criticism of their religion and things like drawing Mohammed.  When immigration trends from areas that support what amounts to censorship begin overtaking the influence of cultures that support freedom of speech -- this is a problem.

Multiculturalism only works up to a point.  More advanced cultures should strive to be tolerant, but militance on the part of less advanced cultures should not be tolerated at all.

It's a tenuous balance that unfortunately has been handicapped by political correctness.
Ticia
Member
+73|5781
Cultural, religious and racial minorities will always feel torn…On one side they know the only way to be successful is to immerse in the dominant culture, on the other integration is often seen as denying their roots.

There is a quote by Malcom X that explains this well, he said:
It's just like when you've got some coffee that’s too black, which means it's too strong. What do you do? You integrate it with cream, you make it weak. But if you pour too much cream in it, you won't even know you ever had coffee. It used to be hot, it becomes cool. It used to be strong, it becomes weak. It used to wake you up, now it puts you to sleep.
Is there a better argument against miscegenation and multiculturalism than this? Is the answer a monocultural society?

I think if nothing else multiculturalism is inevitable.
But when political correctness reaches all levels of absurdity, we really need to ask if this constant promotion of cultural diversity and relativism of values at the expense of unified norms will be worth it in the end.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7127|Disaster Free Zone

Spark wrote:

multiculturalism has worked wonderfully well here.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|6031

Did any of you even read the link? I know it isn't a quick read but it's not war and peace either.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7127|Disaster Free Zone
no
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|6031

Figures. It would be nice to actually discuss something with people who at least read the primer.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7120|Canberra, AUS

Macbeth wrote:

Did any of you even read the link? I know it isn't a quick read but it's not war and peace either.
I did. It's interesting, but really I didn't feel there was much to discuss, except to chuckle at the postcolonialism argument.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5804|London, England
I happen to like living in New York City for this very reason. I just flew back from Puerto Rico today (and boy are my arms tired!) and I happened to run into a man and his family out by the pool at the resort. He was from Kansas and is a rancher by trade. He was telling me how he loved his life and didn't understand wanting to live in a big city like New York (he'd been here twice). He explained that he enjoyed being away from it all (there are 15 people located in his township, 36 square miles) and was happy having his cheap land, cows and a WalMart 22 miles away. I explained to him that I didn't think either was necessarily a better way of life, they both have their trade offs. I happen to like not living in a one stoplight town with a single restaurant and perhaps a general store or whatever. I enjoy being able to walk three blocks from my apartment, eat Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Mexican, Italian, or Jewish foods. I like having a supermarket and a liquor store on that same block. It's convenient and gives me the variety that I enjoy. Does traffic suck? Yes. Do the taxes suck? Absolutely. But I personally wouldn't want to subject myself to the small town mono-culturalism that I would experience out by where he lives.

Here I'm not forced to be friends with people simply because of geography. I can move around, find people that share my views without having to do wholesale changes to fit in. Give me a cosmopolitan city any day of the week
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,824|6552|eXtreme to the maX
Not working too grea here.
TWO men stabbed during a brawl involving up to 100 people in the city are in a stable condition in hospital.
The violence erupted among a group of African men near the Austral Hotel in Bent St, between Rundle and Grenfell streets, just after midnight.

Two other African men were treated for "minor" stab wounds and "numerous" knives, tyre levers and wooden clubs were found in the street.

Police say the brawl was the culmination of a string of confrontations between African men since Friday night.

Dozens of interstate people had come to Adelaide for a "Miss Africa" pageant held at Norwood and many were involved in "a handful" of fights, police said.

Officers responded to a fight outside a Hindley St nightclub on Saturday morning when about 150 people were arguing, but a spokesman said he was not aware if anybody was arrested.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout … 5933606790

They've brought their tribal and gang violence here.
Fuck Israel
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|6031

JohnG@lt wrote:

I happen to like living in New York City for this very reason. I just flew back from Puerto Rico today (and boy are my arms tired!) and I happened to run into a man and his family out by the pool at the resort. He was from Kansas and is a rancher by trade. He was telling me how he loved his life and didn't understand wanting to live in a big city like New York (he'd been here twice). He explained that he enjoyed being away from it all (there are 15 people located in his township, 36 square miles) and was happy having his cheap land, cows and a WalMart 22 miles away. I explained to him that I didn't think either was necessarily a better way of life, they both have their trade offs. I happen to like not living in a one stoplight town with a single restaurant and perhaps a general store or whatever. I enjoy being able to walk three blocks from my apartment, eat Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Mexican, Italian, or Jewish foods. I like having a supermarket and a liquor store on that same block. It's convenient and gives me the variety that I enjoy. Does traffic suck? Yes. Do the taxes suck? Absolutely. But I personally wouldn't want to subject myself to the small town mono-culturalism that I would experience out by where he lives.

Here I'm not forced to be friends with people simply because of geography. I can move around, find people that share my views without having to do wholesale changes to fit in. Give me a cosmopolitan city any day of the week
You didn't read it either. From the section about defining multiculturalism.
Multiculturalism is closely associated with “identity politics,” “the politics of difference,” and “the politics of recognition,” all of which share a commitment to revaluing disrespected identities and changing dominant patterns of representation and communication that marginalize certain groups (Young 1990, Taylor 1992, Gutmann 2003). Multiculturalism is also a matter of economic interests and political power; it demands remedies to economic and political disadvantages that people suffer as a result of their minority status.

Multiculturalists take for granted that it is “culture” and “cultural groups” that are to be recognized and accommodated. Yet multicultural claims include a wide range of claims involving religion, language, ethnicity, nationality, and race. Culture is a notoriously overbroad concept, and all of these categories have been subsumed by or equated with the concept of culture (Song 2008). Language and religion are at the heart of many claims for cultural accommodation by immigrants. The key claim made by minority nations is for self-government rights. Race has a more limited role in multicultural discourse. Antiracism and multiculturalism are distinct but related ideas: the former highlights “victimization and resistance” whereas the latter highlights “cultural life, cultural expression, achievements, and the like” (Blum 1992, 14). Claims for recognition in the context of multicultural education are demands not just for recognition of aspects of a group's actual culture (e.g. African American art and literature) but also for the history of group subordination and its concomitant experience (Gooding-Williams 1998).

Examples of cultural accommodations or “group-differentiated rights” include exemptions from generally applicable law (e.g. religious exemptions), assistance to do things that the majority can do unassisted (e.g. multilingual ballots, funding for minority language schools and ethnic associations, affirmative action), representation of minorities in government bodies (e.g. ethnic quotas for party lists or legislative seats, minority-majority Congressional districts), recognition of traditional legal codes by the dominant legal system (e.g. granting jurisdiction over family law to religious courts), or limited self-government rights (e.g. qualified recognition of tribal sovereignty and federal arrangements recognizing the political autonomy of Quebec) (for a helpful classification of cultural rights, see Levy 1997).

Typically, a group-differentiated right is a right of a minority group (or a member of such a group) to act or not act in a certain way in accordance with their religious obligations and/or cultural commitments. In some cases, it is a right that directly restricts the freedom of non-members in order to protect the minority group's culture, as in the case of restrictions on the use of the English language in Quebec.
When the right-holder is the group, the right may protect group rules that restrict the freedom of individual members, as in the case of the Pueblo membership rule that excludes the children of women who marry outside the group.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5804|London, England
No, I read your little blurb in the beginning.

And no, I don't agree with giving people special status simply because they are part of a minority group. Quotas and everything else is about as wrong as it gets. The idea that it would eventually put an end to segregation and racism is fucking retarded as well. All it has done is enshrine racism and make it socially acceptable, as long as you aren't a member of the majority.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-04 18:15:50)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7120|Canberra, AUS

Dilbert_X wrote:

Not working too grea here.
TWO men stabbed during a brawl involving up to 100 people in the city are in a stable condition in hospital.
The violence erupted among a group of African men near the Austral Hotel in Bent St, between Rundle and Grenfell streets, just after midnight.

Two other African men were treated for "minor" stab wounds and "numerous" knives, tyre levers and wooden clubs were found in the street.

Police say the brawl was the culmination of a string of confrontations between African men since Friday night.

Dozens of interstate people had come to Adelaide for a "Miss Africa" pageant held at Norwood and many were involved in "a handful" of fights, police said.

Officers responded to a fight outside a Hindley St nightclub on Saturday morning when about 150 people were arguing, but a spokesman said he was not aware if anybody was arrested.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout … 5933606790

They've brought their tribal and gang violence here.
In case there wasn't already existing gang violence here...?

I don't think Carl Williams emigrated from sub-Saharan Africa.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,824|6552|eXtreme to the maX
Not Sudanese tribal violence at least.
Fuck Israel
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7120|Canberra, AUS

Dilbert_X wrote:

Not Sudanese tribal violence at least.
Yes, wow 2 people. Horrifying.

As far as gang violence is concerned, this is pretty small TBH.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6851|North Carolina

Macbeth wrote:

Figures. It would be nice to actually discuss something with people who at least read the primer.
I did...  if you want a response more related to your link, I favor the Egalitarian Objection and the Vulnerable "Internal Minorities" criticisms of multiculturalism.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,824|6552|eXtreme to the maX

Spark wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Not Sudanese tribal violence at least.
Yes, wow 2 people. Horrifying.

As far as gang violence is concerned, this is pretty small TBH.
There have been a number of other incidents including murders, and a 100 strong armed battle in suburbia is not '2 people'.
Fuck Israel

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