BF2S Forums Wikileaks Releases More Information about Iraq War

Ticia wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Or how our moral superiority is nothing but an illusion since the US military and their allies are as barbarous as the ones they're defending us from.

Ticia, I know we agree on most things, but yeah, we're gonna have to disagree on this one big time.

Oh no, can we save this marriage? 

See? I'm on the outside and I'm looking in… at the big picture.
Hundreds of years from now when the US become just another country how will all this be told? World War II was only 60 years ago and there's already so much controversy about if the US deserve their hero role or not.
I can imagine the trouble our more evolved species will have to go through to justify Iraq or Afghanistan in History.

The US didnt play a hero role in ww2, no one did. Just a big part in winning it. If anyone played a hero role it was the jews and the red cross, but heroes don't live long.

No one willjustify iraq, but maybe afghanistan.

Acerider wrote:

Think of it this way. It's not how many people they killed, it's how evil dictatory they were. So they're both very evil dictatory.

... which at the time both happened to recover their respective nations from the most disatrous states.

Acerider wrote:

I wouldn't say Stalin or Hitler were any better or worse than Hussein. They're all a chip of the old block. The old block being a red star. Wwhich was chipped with a hammer and a scythe.

In the running for "most nonsensical DST post of the year"

Spark wrote:

Acerider wrote:

I wouldn't say Stalin or Hitler were any better or worse than Hussein. They're all a chip of the old block. The old block being a red star. Wwhich was chipped with a hammer and a scythe.

In the running for "most nonsensical DST post of the year"

Yeah...it's totally a sickle.

EVieira wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

/facepalm.
turq, go, like, educate yourself on the matter, whydoncha?

on topic:
war never changes (c). nobody walks away clean from it, regardless of the outcome.

That's my point. By trying to cover up the smut using the excuse that "it'll put the troops in danger" makes it worse when it comes out. Transparency is essential for a true democracy. The more things are hidden from the public, the more the people can be manipulated.

Its not a matter of whether Russia or China would do worst, is a matter that the people should know and thus be able to publicly condemn the actions of their troops doing this.

If we had the kind of disclosure back during WW2 that we have today, the American public would have demanded an early end to the war and a truce with Hitler.

Sorry, but sometimes, transparency is much less important than finishing the job.  We could've won the Vietnam War if we didn't have the media going completely against it.

The point is, the public will be manipulated one way or another.  The average person doesn't do a whole lot of self-education or thinking for themselves, so as a result, a government has to be practical in what it allows to surface during a war -- unless it doesn't mind losing the war.

EVieira wrote:

If you rather remain ignorant of what your country does to other countries, that's your choice. But by trying to hide these actions (or ignoring them) goes against the "freedom"and "democracy" models that the US so proudly sells the rest of the world.

Either follow the principles you preach the world or end the hypocrisy. Trying to hide it makes it worse. Not everyone prefers to be ignorant.

I can sympathize with that.  I would agree that we pretend it's about spreading democracy, but it's not.  And besides, democracy isn't even a practical form of government for tribal cultures.  Uneducated and extremely poor people aren't ready for democracy.

It's about economics.  It always has been -- it always will be.  We reserve the right to be free in our own country, but when it comes to war, things work entirely different.  Just tell people enough to have an idea of what's going on, but keep things as discrete as possible.

And as far as ignorance goes, it doesn't matter how much you want to know the truth.  You're only going to get the facts that the media wants you to know or is allowed to tell you.

EVieira wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

EVieira wrote:

That's my point. By trying to cover up the smut using the excuse that "it'll put the troops in danger" makes it worse when it comes out. Transparency is essential for a true democracy. The more things are hidden from the public, the more the people can be manipulated.

Its not a matter of whether Russia or China would do worst, is a matter that the people should know and thus be able to publicly condemn the actions of their troops doing this.

If we had the kind of disclosure back during WW2 that we have today, the American public would have demanded an early end to the war and a truce with Hitler.

Sorry, but sometimes, transparency is much less important than finishing the job.  We could've won the Vietnam War if we didn't have the media going completely against it.

The point is, the public will be manipulated one way or another.  The average person doesn't do a whole lot of self-education or thinking for themselves, so as a result, a government has to be practical in what it allows to surface during a war -- unless it doesn't mind losing the war.

If you rather remain ignorant of what your country does to other countries, that's your choice. But by trying to hide these actions (or ignoring them) goes against the "freedom"and "democracy" models that the US so proudly sells the rest of the world.

Either follow the principles you preach the world or end the hypocrisy. Trying to hide it makes it worse. Not everyone prefers to be ignorant.

A picture says a thousand words. Perhaps people who live in glass houses should be wary before casting stones.

EVieira wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

EVieira wrote:

If you rather remain ignorant of what your country does to other countries, that's your choice. But by trying to hide these actions (or ignoring them) goes against the "freedom"and "democracy" models that the US so proudly sells the rest of the world.

Either follow the principles you preach the world or end the hypocrisy. Trying to hide it makes it worse. Not everyone prefers to be ignorant.

I can sympathize with that.  I would agree that we pretend it's about spreading democracy, but it's not.  And besides, democracy isn't even a practical form of government for tribal cultures.  Uneducated and extremely poor people aren't ready for democracy.

It's about economics.  It always has been -- it always will be.  We reserve the right to be free in our own country, but when it comes to war, things work entirely different.  Just tell people enough to have an idea of what's going on, but keep things as discrete as possible.

And as far as ignorance goes, it doesn't matter how much you want to know the truth.  You're only going to get the facts that the media wants you to know or is allowed to tell you.

I agree completely. Wars will continue to happen, I just think governments should be more aware that the people is watching. I believe that will put more effort into wars being fought for better reasons, if that can ever be achieved...

It's not that wars should be fought for better reasons,it's that they should be fought more humanely. Wars will arise for good and bad reasons nontheless. Granted, it's possible to minimize the amount of wars one fights and therefore the amount of negative wars they fight.

EVieira wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

EVieira wrote:

If you rather remain ignorant of what your country does to other countries, that's your choice. But by trying to hide these actions (or ignoring them) goes against the "freedom"and "democracy" models that the US so proudly sells the rest of the world.

Either follow the principles you preach the world or end the hypocrisy. Trying to hide it makes it worse. Not everyone prefers to be ignorant.

I can sympathize with that.  I would agree that we pretend it's about spreading democracy, but it's not.  And besides, democracy isn't even a practical form of government for tribal cultures.  Uneducated and extremely poor people aren't ready for democracy.

It's about economics.  It always has been -- it always will be.  We reserve the right to be free in our own country, but when it comes to war, things work entirely different.  Just tell people enough to have an idea of what's going on, but keep things as discrete as possible.

And as far as ignorance goes, it doesn't matter how much you want to know the truth.  You're only going to get the facts that the media wants you to know or is allowed to tell you.

I agree completely. Wars will continue to happen, I just think governments should be more aware that the people is watching. I believe that will put more effort into wars being fought for better reasons, if that can ever be achieved...

Well, if it's any consolation, I generally lean against interventionism.

However, I think that once you commit to a war, you should pull no punches.

We should've just nuked the remote areas where the Taliban is hiding.  If the blast didn't kill them, the radiation would have.

EVieira wrote:

burnzz wrote:

i for one am getting tired of people that live outside the US painting it's citizens with a broad brush. i don't condone or criticize every action that my country makes, but i am proud to be a citizen - and i exercise my right to vote at every opportunity. it would be easy to say "aw fuck it, my vote doesn't matter" but for me it does. i realize there are biases in the media (which isn't just the news) and our current bi-partisan system is flawed.

constant criticism of America will not solve anything other than make reasonable Americans defend their country, further fueling the cycle.

Burnnzz, I didn't mean to generalize the US. In the end, I'm glad the US is clearing the Talibans out of Afghanistan. I'm glad the US gave Somalia a try. And I damn well respect the economy you've built. I also have some great friends and family who are Americans. My criticism is only to the withholding of information. With the kind of power the US has, I believe its people should be well aware of what it does. If that happens, the government will be more cautious when using that power. And that's important for all the world.

Why? We don't need to know every single action the government takes on a daily basis. Not only would there be a colossal amount of information to take in, most of it would be pointless. We're perfectly content to sit back, take in the big picture and fact check the information they do feel is important to let us in on. I sure as shit don't need to know how an operation is planned for a specific attack in Kandahar.

Two reasons. 1) Information overload which makes the dissemination of information pointless. Too much white noise. and 2) Letting people in on every single decision that is made leads to second guessing, micromanagement on the part of the voters, and the complete paralysis of government. This is why direct democracy is such a horrible idea.

The entire concept of how our government works is that we elect people to make the decisions for us. It's their responsibility to process the info and make decisions. If they fuck up enough we raise hell and vote them out. We're happy with the system because for all the annoyance it causes us, it works.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-26 08:16:10)

Acerider wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I can sympathize with that.  I would agree that we pretend it's about spreading democracy, but it's not.  And besides, democracy isn't even a practical form of government for tribal cultures.  Uneducated and extremely poor people aren't ready for democracy.

It's about economics.  It always has been -- it always will be.  We reserve the right to be free in our own country, but when it comes to war, things work entirely different.  Just tell people enough to have an idea of what's going on, but keep things as discrete as possible.

And as far as ignorance goes, it doesn't matter how much you want to know the truth.  You're only going to get the facts that the media wants you to know or is allowed to tell you.

I agree completely. Wars will continue to happen, I just think governments should be more aware that the people is watching. I believe that will put more effort into wars being fought for better reasons, if that can ever be achieved...

It's not that wars should be fought for better reasons,it's that they should be fought more humanely. Wars will arise for good and bad reasons nontheless. Granted, it's possible to minimize the amount of wars one fights and therefore the amount of negative wars they fight.

More humanely? Pace, fuck off and die would you? The purpose of war is to kill the enemy. Nothing more, nothing less. Adding a bunch of rules on how war is fought is fucking asinine.