It is because of my enlightened professorsJohnG@lt wrote:
Yale boy gets itnukchebi0 wrote:
"Land of opportunity" simply alludes to the freedom of US society and lack of institutionalized socioeconomic disparity.
Benevolent dictators are extremely rare because the concept is entirely contrary to human nature. Lord Acton's famous quote says it best.
Whether it's one million people with their boot on your neck or a single person, what's the difference? Democracy and tyranny, ultimately the same.Uzique wrote:
yeah i mean socialism and elitism go hand in hand like communism and exclusivism
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well, given your distaste of democracy, maybe you can understand why I'm not too fond of republics either.JohnG@lt wrote:
Whether it's one million people with their boot on your neck or a single person, what's the difference? Democracy and tyranny, ultimately the same.Uzique wrote:
yeah i mean socialism and elitism go hand in hand like communism and exclusivism
I prefer pre-Lincolnian Republicanism where the focus was on states rights. I'm not saying I want to return to slavery, I'm just saying that the further down power is pushed, the better off the individual is. The federal government should simply be a safeguard for freedom and a check against any form of legislated inequality at the state level. The concentration of power into the hands of a few that has been going on for the past 150 years is the real problem in this country.Turquoise wrote:
Well, given your distaste of democracy, maybe you can understand why I'm not too fond of republics either.JohnG@lt wrote:
Whether it's one million people with their boot on your neck or a single person, what's the difference? Democracy and tyranny, ultimately the same.Uzique wrote:
yeah i mean socialism and elitism go hand in hand like communism and exclusivism
Oh, and before it's mentioned, secession is stupid. Work through the differences, don't 'take your ball and go home'.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
*shrugs* I just think that a union of 50 states among 300 million people is a very impractical arrangement.JohnG@lt wrote:
I prefer pre-Lincolnian Republicanism where the focus was on states rights. I'm not saying I want to return to slavery, I'm just saying that the further down power is pushed, the better off the individual is. The federal government should simply be a safeguard for freedom and a check against any form of legislated inequality at the state level. The concentration of power into the hands of a few that has been going on for the past 150 years is the real problem in this country.Turquoise wrote:
Well, given your distaste of democracy, maybe you can understand why I'm not too fond of republics either.JohnG@lt wrote:
Whether it's one million people with their boot on your neck or a single person, what's the difference? Democracy and tyranny, ultimately the same.
Oh, and before it's mentioned, secession is stupid. Work through the differences, don't 'take your ball and go home'.
I do agree with the idea of decentralizing power, but that only adds to my desire for America to be split about 6 ways.
We're doing a pre pay program with the state. Let you know how it works out in 12 years or so..
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
o godTurquoise wrote:
I do agree with the idea of decentralizing power, but that only adds to my desire for America to be split about 6 ways.
Ok, maybe my phrasing made it sound like a sexual metaphor.Macbeth wrote:
o godTurquoise wrote:
I do agree with the idea of decentralizing power, but that only adds to my desire for America to be split about 6 ways.
I agree. Stanted out interesting enough and I was about to add my two cents wrt to the system we have here, which is heavily subsidised. My own degree, top-level science w/ honours, will give me a $17k debt by the end.Macbeth wrote:
Well this thread has become fucking retarded.
Now it's turned into Turquoise doing his best to paint the entirety of humanity with one huge brush and be a complete numpty on the population debate. And now JG and Turq having some kind of weird philosophical debate about democracy.
Last edited by Spark (2010-11-03 22:45:18)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Tricky question, I had the benefit of a practically free Bachelors and Masters, back then it was the elite though
The rot really began when Polytechnics became Universities and everyone was suddenly entitled to a degree whether or not it had any practical application. This isn't out of snobbery, countries need people who can actually do things, probably I would have been better off doing something much less theoretical and more practical.
At some point a degree needs to be paid for. If legions of people are doing pointless courses which aren't going to equip them to get highly paid jobs, and therefore repay their fees in taxes, then the system breaks and this is what has happened.
I'm not sure how to deal with it, expecting 17-18 yr olds to decide their future and take out a $50k loan to get there is pretty harsh, expecting taxpayers to fund wasters on Medieval History courses is unreasonable too.
I don't like the US system either where you need a very rich daddy to get into the best college.
Not too sure what the solution is, taking a punt give a 50% subsidy to most courses, 75% to useful stuff like medicine and engineering and let the student find the rest. Some subsidy can be taken by charging foreign students 150% of the course cost - something like that happens now - and Universities shouldn't need too much tax money.
The rot really began when Polytechnics became Universities and everyone was suddenly entitled to a degree whether or not it had any practical application. This isn't out of snobbery, countries need people who can actually do things, probably I would have been better off doing something much less theoretical and more practical.
At some point a degree needs to be paid for. If legions of people are doing pointless courses which aren't going to equip them to get highly paid jobs, and therefore repay their fees in taxes, then the system breaks and this is what has happened.
I'm not sure how to deal with it, expecting 17-18 yr olds to decide their future and take out a $50k loan to get there is pretty harsh, expecting taxpayers to fund wasters on Medieval History courses is unreasonable too.
I don't like the US system either where you need a very rich daddy to get into the best college.
Not too sure what the solution is, taking a punt give a 50% subsidy to most courses, 75% to useful stuff like medicine and engineering and let the student find the rest. Some subsidy can be taken by charging foreign students 150% of the course cost - something like that happens now - and Universities shouldn't need too much tax money.
Fuck Israel
one state/county/nation's 'useful stuff' is another's superfluous, over-qualified abundance
other than that, i agree with most of your post. just the biased and flawed separation of subjects into 'use' categories that i don't understand.
surely incentivizing people to take medicine/engineering because of cost would just tip the scale the other way...
just build 10 new hospitals a year?
other than that, i agree with most of your post. just the biased and flawed separation of subjects into 'use' categories that i don't understand.
surely incentivizing people to take medicine/engineering because of cost would just tip the scale the other way...
just build 10 new hospitals a year?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Technical courses such as medicine cost more to run, I'm thinking choice of course shouldn't depend so much on the cost, and doctors are more useful to a nation than interior designers. OTOH they earn a lot more so maybe they shouldn't get a subsidy, OTOH they earn more because there is a shortage.
Actually medicine is an odd example where college places are still severely constrained and control supply of doctors, thanks to the RCS , keeping the wages up.
Actually medicine is an odd example where college places are still severely constrained and control supply of doctors, thanks to the RCS , keeping the wages up.
Fuck Israel
Nor did mine. I had to get scholarships and loans to pay for my own. As did my sister. At a public university.SenorToenails wrote:
My parents didn't pay for my education...how many middleclass families can afford to send 4 kids to college all within 5 years?FEOS wrote:
Just as it removes the responsibility from the parents to provide for their children's education, it removes the same responsibility from the individual. It is not the state's responsibility--it is an individual responsibility.
A basic difference in perspective between the UK/Europe and the US in that regard.
Individual/family responsibility to educate beyond secondary school, not the state's.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Here there is a subsidies system in place already:
Hence, for someone like me doing NP, a 4-year degree will cost about $17k.National Priorities
$4355* per full-time year
(100% load)
Maths
Natural & Physical Sciences
Statistics
Band 1
$5442* per full-time year
100% load)
Nursing
Education
Humanities
Social Studies
Behavioural Science
Clinical Psychology
Foreign Languages
Visual & Performing Arts
Band 2
$7756* per full-time year
(100% load)
Computing
Built Environment
Other Health
Allied Health
Engineering
Surveying
Agriculture
Band 3
$9080* per full-time year
(100% load)
Law
Accounting
Administration
Economics
Business/Commerce
Dentistry
Medicine
Veterinary Science
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I'm just thankful that I'm in uni at the moment.
My sister though, nah she's going to have to totally write off uni now even if she wants to go. At least at the moment I get a little bit of a maintenance grant/loan, no where near any of my mates but I scrape through on my scholarship. She'd be left with no grant and not much loan, because my parents earn over the new thresholds, though are in such a shit state of affairs that they can't even dream of helping two kids get through uni, I mean heck they can't even help me. Why should student's such as myself be penalised for my parents stupid economical mistakes. If I was my sisters age I simply would not have been able to go to uni. End of. Dreams shattered.
I know I'm not a one of a kind case, theres going to be alot of kids who are going to have to seriously consider their choices in life and whether they can even feasibly get through university because of their parents mistakes.
Cheers cameron and clegg for creating an elitist, classist education system. Because nothing bad has ever come from classism before.
My sister though, nah she's going to have to totally write off uni now even if she wants to go. At least at the moment I get a little bit of a maintenance grant/loan, no where near any of my mates but I scrape through on my scholarship. She'd be left with no grant and not much loan, because my parents earn over the new thresholds, though are in such a shit state of affairs that they can't even dream of helping two kids get through uni, I mean heck they can't even help me. Why should student's such as myself be penalised for my parents stupid economical mistakes. If I was my sisters age I simply would not have been able to go to uni. End of. Dreams shattered.
I know I'm not a one of a kind case, theres going to be alot of kids who are going to have to seriously consider their choices in life and whether they can even feasibly get through university because of their parents mistakes.
Cheers cameron and clegg for creating an elitist, classist education system. Because nothing bad has ever come from classism before.
And in the US, public colleges/universities are subsidized to a degree (hence the difference in tuition between public and private schools). I think the degree of subsidy is just much less here and the decreases in subsidy being proposed there would simply make it more like it is here, putting more of the cost on the student.Spark wrote:
Here there is a subsidies system in place already:
Hence, for someone like me doing NP, a 4-year degree will cost about $17k.
For example, your four-year degree cost is probably about the annual books and tuition cost for the average public university here.
We still have a very large percentage of our population that gets at least a bachelor's degree, with a growing population getting graduate degrees. Many finance that via government-guaranteed student loans, which have low interest rates and long payoff terms.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Yeah that's a bit weird. last I heard your graduation rate was higher than ours.
Perhaps we just have more stringent academic standards due to the completely standardized and very strict UAI (now ATAR) ranking system?
EDIT: That does not include accommodation though, which obviously makes a big big difference. You can't put accommodation costs on HECS obviously though. Nor does it include textbooks but this govt site puts the cost of that at $400-$1000 which I can say for a maths/physics student is a reasonable estimate.
Perhaps we just have more stringent academic standards due to the completely standardized and very strict UAI (now ATAR) ranking system?
EDIT: That does not include accommodation though, which obviously makes a big big difference. You can't put accommodation costs on HECS obviously though. Nor does it include textbooks but this govt site puts the cost of that at $400-$1000 which I can say for a maths/physics student is a reasonable estimate.
Last edited by Spark (2010-11-04 04:19:39)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
But it also allows anyone who works for it the opportunities of good quality higher education.JohnG@lt wrote:
It also essentially removed all responsibility from parents to provide for their kids. You can only go down that road so far before it bites you in the ass.
High fees lead to greater wealth disparity, which has been shown time and time again to be huge driver of all sorts social problems.
But on the other hand if everyone in the country has a degree then it does undermine the value of them a bit. It also goes hand in hand with the notion that everyone can have high paying jobs - which is not feasible. Some people have to do the shitty badly paid jobs and there is already a trend in many western countries for these jobs to be done by immigrants - which is unsustainable.
No telling about academic standards...but tbh, those vary widely from school to school here. Even within schools from professor to professor. Each school has baseline academic ethical standards, if you will, but grading standards are rather...subjective.Spark wrote:
Yeah that's a bit weird. last I heard your graduation rate was higher than ours.
Perhaps we just have more stringent academic standards due to the completely standardized and very strict UAI (now ATAR) ranking system?
EDIT: That does not include accommodation though, which obviously makes a big big difference. Nor does it include textbooks but this govt site puts the cost of that at $400-$1000 which I can say for a maths/physics student is a reasonable estimate.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Ah well that's the thing. Here each state has a fully standardized cirriculum which every student who wants a university place follows, and their results are put into a interstate system that ranks them all based on their performance with scaling factors based on standardizing tests (ie. the HSC system, in which 50% of the mark is internal, school-based assessment, but which is then scaled based on the other 50% which is all external exams which are identical for everyone in the state) - the system then chucks back a number (used to be out of 100, now 99.95...) that is basically a ranking system. Universities have minimum entry requirements for these numbers to get into a degree.
A standard Arts degree requires 70 IIRC whilst basic science requires an 80 or 85. Law is 75, Economics is 80, or something like that. More advanced degrees like science+honours require 95 (and top drawer degrees require 98's or 99's)
Not that this is all perfect thing. The cirriculum are set to be standard for everyone, so for someone who wants to go ahead and accelerate a bit, it can feel... asphyxiating.
A standard Arts degree requires 70 IIRC whilst basic science requires an 80 or 85. Law is 75, Economics is 80, or something like that. More advanced degrees like science+honours require 95 (and top drawer degrees require 98's or 99's)
Not that this is all perfect thing. The cirriculum are set to be standard for everyone, so for someone who wants to go ahead and accelerate a bit, it can feel... asphyxiating.
Last edited by Spark (2010-11-04 04:28:45)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Instead of lower academic standards, could it be the very real principle that when something is handed to someone it is not respected? It's amazing the motivation to care for an item that occurs when people are forced to pay for things out of their own pocket. I have a friend that went to university in Sweden for about ten years to become a doctor. Half of that time he spent dicking around playing video games. If he was over here and forced to take out student loans to pay for his education, you better believe he would've finished his studies in a much shorter time period. People milk the system because they don't respect it. They don't respect it because they feel entitled to it rather than privileged to receive it.Spark wrote:
Yeah that's a bit weird. last I heard your graduation rate was higher than ours.
Perhaps we just have more stringent academic standards due to the completely standardized and very strict UAI (now ATAR) ranking system?
EDIT: That does not include accommodation though, which obviously makes a big big difference. You can't put accommodation costs on HECS obviously though. Nor does it include textbooks but this govt site puts the cost of that at $400-$1000 which I can say for a maths/physics student is a reasonable estimate.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Wealth disparity always has to exist as a function of society. It not only represents the reality that some jobs are more important to society than others, but it also acts as a great motivational tool. There has to be something to motivate people to strive to become CEOs rather than janitors, ya know?Bertster7 wrote:
But it also allows anyone who works for it the opportunities of good quality higher education.JohnG@lt wrote:
It also essentially removed all responsibility from parents to provide for their kids. You can only go down that road so far before it bites you in the ass.
High fees lead to greater wealth disparity, which has been shown time and time again to be huge driver of all sorts social problems.
But on the other hand if everyone in the country has a degree then it does undermine the value of them a bit. It also goes hand in hand with the notion that everyone can have high paying jobs - which is not feasible. Some people have to do the shitty badly paid jobs and there is already a trend in many western countries for these jobs to be done by immigrants - which is unsustainable.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
John, believe it or not, I completely agree with your last 2 posts.
There are certain things that can be done to lower wealth disparity, but yeah, it's always going to be there. And yeah, most people aren't capable of becoming CEOs -- even if they were given all of the same opportunities as most people that become them.
I guess people just don't like to think about how varied levels of competency among humans really are.
There are certain things that can be done to lower wealth disparity, but yeah, it's always going to be there. And yeah, most people aren't capable of becoming CEOs -- even if they were given all of the same opportunities as most people that become them.
I guess people just don't like to think about how varied levels of competency among humans really are.
Bit late to bring this back up, but I got an offer from Bristol for an MSci in physics for AAB, I had a pretty good application. After the interview day I turned them down because I didnt like the place.Uzique wrote:
president you are incredibly naive to apply to bristol with only 3 A's. i have 4A's and a B and didn't even apply there for undergraduate. bristol is one of the most over-applied and over-flowing universities in the UK... being a consistently high-ranking institution that doesn't 'seem' to have the brand appeal of oxbridge; the poor logic here is that every cautious oxbridge applicant also applies for bristol and so the place is absolutely brimming. to get into any top10 university in the UK with only 3 a-levels, you really need to be an exceptional candidate in your personal drive as well as your on-paper marks.
what subject are you hoping to do? please don't say englit because bristol in particular is the most competitive englit dept. in the country.
sympathies but, echoing ghetto (and his dickishness): if you have no back-up strategy, you're going to miss out.
i'm still principally opposed to this tuition fees business-- even though it hasn't and won't personally affect me. master's degrees are also prohibitively expensive over here and so it's a similar financial 'effect': many able candidates simply cannot take further education because of the increased costs/debt. now i know that it's unrealistic for everybody to have a complete carte blanche of academia, but it's another thing entirely when potentially brilliant academics/intellectuals/researchers cannot reach their full potential because of financial overheads. it stifles academic and research progression.
The thing that pissed me off this year was due to the sheer amount of applicants, there were no near miss places. Kings had 7 applicants for each place in physics. Even more for the few near miss places they'd left.
I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
I'd want to see graduation rates as a percentage of university entrants, not just high school finishers, before seeing that. A bucketload of kids drop out at Year 10 and a bucketload more don't go to Uni.JohnG@lt wrote:
Instead of lower academic standards, could it be the very real principle that when something is handed to someone it is not respected? It's amazing the motivation to care for an item that occurs when people are forced to pay for things out of their own pocket. I have a friend that went to university in Sweden for about ten years to become a doctor. Half of that time he spent dicking around playing video games. If he was over here and forced to take out student loans to pay for his education, you better believe he would've finished his studies in a much shorter time period. People milk the system because they don't respect it. They don't respect it because they feel entitled to it rather than privileged to receive it.Spark wrote:
Yeah that's a bit weird. last I heard your graduation rate was higher than ours.
Perhaps we just have more stringent academic standards due to the completely standardized and very strict UAI (now ATAR) ranking system?
EDIT: That does not include accommodation though, which obviously makes a big big difference. You can't put accommodation costs on HECS obviously though. Nor does it include textbooks but this govt site puts the cost of that at $400-$1000 which I can say for a maths/physics student is a reasonable estimate.
And by the way, at my uni at least, in my field, we go through material at a much, much, much quicker rate than any American uni I've seen. And that can be made even faster if you pull the right levers. Just comparing to MIT, I can tell you right now the DiffEQ course I did was much more difficult than the Honours level course. The complex analysis material I've already done in four weeks is the literal equivalent of the full course I see on OCW. The Physics I see there are half-a-semester to a semester behind as well.
This is compared to a normal, non accelerated courseload that is. Accelerate and the comparisons become silly.
But it's very easy to tell if you've got into a place here. If your ATAR was higher than the listed requirement, you're in. For the very top levels, say, 99/100 requirement, you might need to fill in a form or do some paperwork but otherwise it's a pretty automated process.
Last edited by Spark (2010-11-04 07:46:21)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman