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2010-11-23 22:22:11
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+564|7103|Purplicious Wisconsin
They're testing Obama 'cause they know he isn't do jack shit except negotiate a cease fire. Why the fuck couldn't the North Koreans wait until we have a tough president so we can seriously fuck them over real bad?

South Korea won't really do much until NK troops march south and attack them directly. But I think NK is just gonna keep on toying with its southern brother and the USA and just laugh at us doing nothing.
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2010-11-23 22:48:11
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6990|132 and Bush

For once I'd like us Americans to imagine it's not about us.

War Man, consider the Second Battle of Yeonpyeong and the fact that they did their first nuclear test during the previous US administration. NK was also testing long range missiles (Taepodong-2) while Bush was in office.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-11-23 23:38:56
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7164|Moscow, Russia

Kmar wrote:

For once I'd like us Americans to imagine it's not about us.
or you could simply stop imagining it is about you.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-11-24 00:15:21
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7064|Canberra, AUS

Kmar wrote:

For once I'd like us Americans to imagine it's not about us.

War Man, consider the Second Battle of Yeonpyeong and the fact that they did their first nuclear test during the previous US administration. NK was also testing long range missiles (Taepodong-2) while Bush was in office.
Don't be so logical with War Man
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-11-24 00:24:38
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6990|132 and Bush

They lobbed a missile over Japan when Clinton was in office. They really don't care who our president is. Lil kim is going to do what he wants. That's the way arrogance works.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-11-24 01:45:12
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,068|7161|PNW

...until they bring in HANS BRIX!
2010-11-24 05:11:24
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6800|'Murka

Kmar wrote:

The average nk citizen may be malnourished. The military is the one place nk does spends its money. They've got to be kept fed so they can keep marching in those glorious parades we're all used to seeing.

My bet is that one v one NK would kick SKoreas ass up and down the sidewalk for drill.
That may have been the case a few decades ago. Now the common theme among US troops there is "We used to be here to keep the North Koreans back. Now we're here to keep the South Koreans back."

In terms of real military capability, the ROKs probably have more than the nKs. Numbers on paper don't mean much if your equipment isn't maintained, is obsolete, your troops are malnourished, poorly trained, etc. Yes, the nKs have massive arty on their side, and have for years. But that's the thing--it's been that way for years, and the ROK and US have been planning /preparing for it the whole time.

It IS a powder keg, no doubt. But it is a 60-year old powder keg. The one changing variable is the impending succession of the Chonger. That has the potential of creating some instability in what has--generally--been a stable situation.

Kmar: discussing hypotheticals is one thing. That is not what I was commenting on. I was commenting on the "ZOMG we're going to teh wurz!" posts...which were not discussing hypotheticals, but rather saying "this WILL happen" because something that happens all the time has happened again. Merely trying to keep people from going off the deep end.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-11-24 05:51:00
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6990|132 and Bush

FEOS wrote:

Kmar wrote:

The average nk citizen may be malnourished. The military is the one place nk does spends its money. They've got to be kept fed so they can keep marching in those glorious parades we're all used to seeing.

My bet is that one v one NK would kick SKoreas ass up and down the sidewalk for drill.
That may have been the case a few decades ago. Now the common theme among US troops there is "We used to be here to keep the North Koreans back. Now we're here to keep the South Koreans back."

In terms of real military capability, the ROKs probably have more than the nKs. Numbers on paper don't mean much if your equipment isn't maintained, is obsolete, your troops are malnourished, poorly trained, etc. Yes, the nKs have massive arty on their side, and have for years. But that's the thing--it's been that way for years, and the ROK and US have been planning /preparing for it the whole time.

It IS a powder keg, no doubt. But it is a 60-year old powder keg. The one changing variable is the impending succession of the Chonger. That has the potential of creating some instability in what has--generally--been a stable situation.

Kmar: discussing hypotheticals is one thing. That is not what I was commenting on. I was commenting on the "ZOMG we're going to teh wurz!" posts...which were not discussing hypotheticals, but rather saying "this WILL happen" because something that happens all the time has happened again. Merely trying to keep people from going off the deep end.
That sounds like an argument for going to war a few decades ago. The troops that are over there now weren't around the first time we underestimated the NK. I understand the numbers v quality/training argument. However, I still see it as a bit lopsided in favor of the north ...even after considering those (take our word for it) facts. Anyhow, this judgement is based on the limited information the general public has on Nk.

I think both of us might have misunderstood tone. Turq was bold with his nukem attitude. But he is all for nuking a number of other countries as well..
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-11-24 06:12:38
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

For once I'd like us Americans to imagine it's not about us.
or you could simply stop imagining it is about you.
Is there any reason you're being redundant?...
2010-11-24 06:16:51
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

Kmar wrote:

I think both of us might have misunderstood tone. Turq was bold with his nukem attitude. But he is all for nuking a number of other countries as well..
*shrugs*  periodic population control
2010-11-24 06:19:24
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7164|Moscow, Russia

Turquoise wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

For once I'd like us Americans to imagine it's not about us.
or you could simply stop imagining it is about you.
Is there any reason you're being redundant?...
i wasn't. however, i did - due to my lousy english no doubt - miss certain nuances in kmars post that might make mine look like i was being redundant, yes.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-11-24 06:19:54)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-11-24 06:23:02
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

Shahter wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Shahter wrote:


or you could simply stop imagining it is about you.
Is there any reason you're being redundant?...
i wasn't. however, i did - due to my lousy english no doubt - miss certain nuances in kmars post that might make mine look like i was being redundant, yes.
Ok, I looked at your post again, and I think I know what you mean now.
2010-11-24 06:35:00
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6990|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Is there any reason you're being redundant?...
i wasn't. however, i did - due to my lousy english no doubt - miss certain nuances in kmars post that might make mine look like i was being redundant, yes.
Ok, I looked at your post again, and I think I know what you mean now.
https://i.imgur.com/5506i.jpg
lol.. i think we are being redundant now ..
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-11-24 06:54:13
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+564|7103|Purplicious Wisconsin

Kmar wrote:

For once I'd like us Americans to imagine it's not about us.

War Man, consider the Second Battle of Yeonpyeong and the fact that they did their first nuclear test during the previous US administration. NK was also testing long range missiles (Taepodong-2) while Bush was in office.
Bush wasn't exactly strong either, tougher than Obama yes but still.
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2010-11-24 06:59:28
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

War Man wrote:

They're testing Obama 'cause they know he isn't do jack shit except negotiate a cease fire. Why the fuck couldn't the North Koreans wait until we have a tough president so we can seriously fuck them over real bad?

South Korea won't really do much until NK troops march south and attack them directly. But I think NK is just gonna keep on toying with its southern brother and the USA and just laugh at us doing nothing.
You're seriously a retard. In events like this you should be THANKFUL that fucking hockey mums like palin and the entourage of idiots aren't anywhere near a position of power.

The US doesn't have jack to do with this - not in the decision to go to war. Obama did _the right thing_ by telling the south koreans "you have our support". It is the south koreans themselves who should decide what's going to happen. It's their neighbour, their families over the border and sure as hell their call.

FEOS wrote:

It IS a powder keg, no doubt. But it is a 60-year old powder keg.
Aging bombs tend to become more unstable over time. FEOS it's ridiculous to state that this year has been "just like any other" concerning North Korea. Since the beginning of the armistice never has there been this much aggression by the north koreans in plain view for all to see.

Now I'm not a warmongerer nor do I believe this is the kickstart to a war but whatever is going to happen after this incident it's safe to say that the NK population will bear the brunt of the punishment, with all it's consequences. For now, I assume that everyone is waiting patiently on what China has to say about the whole situation and for whom they will voice support, if any.

Does anyone honestly believe that consistent sanctioning of NK has any positive effect in this whole situation? From my point of view all it's causing is for their population to radicalize more and more. Tell me, what's NK going to do if they run out of food and resources completely? I'll tell you what, self destruct. The decades upon decades of indoctrination and propaganda have damaged the country beyond repair.
inane little opines
2010-11-24 07:04:56
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

Does anyone honestly believe that consistent sanctioning of NK has any positive effect in this whole situation? From my point of view all it's causing is for their population to radicalize more and more. Tell me, what's NK going to do if they run out of food and resources completely? I'll tell you what, self destruct. The decades upon decades of indoctrination and propaganda have damaged the country beyond repair.
It just seems like if they are as unstable as you suggest, then wiping them off the face of the planet would be the best course of action.

Granted, as you said, it's not our call.
2010-11-24 07:14:13
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Turquoise wrote:

It just seems like if they are as unstable as you suggest, then wiping them off the face of the planet would be the best course of action.

Granted, as you said, it's not our call.
Well, this is a really tough one. Quite frankly I'm inclined to agree - I don't think anything will change with kim jong il stepping down. The last thing anyone would want is another 40-50 years of senseless dictatorship.

However, would it be worth the inevitably millions of dead koreans? Furthermore, I believe that another long occupation and rebuilding mission would come at a severe cost of western wealth.
inane little opines
2010-11-24 07:19:56
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7010|London, England
Two civilians confirmed killed by the shelling so that's pretty big, media reported that most of the shells that did hit the island were hitting the military base over there. So maybe it wasn't as indiscriminate/terror bombing as people say it was and more of a targeted attack. I guess North Korea could do what everyone else does and chalk the civvy deaths/damage down to collateral and move on. Still no information of how South Korea retaliated other than by firing back, for all we know they could have hit them back just as indiscriminately and killed innocents too, but of course there's no such thing as an innocent North Korean
2010-11-24 07:20:18
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

It just seems like if they are as unstable as you suggest, then wiping them off the face of the planet would be the best course of action.

Granted, as you said, it's not our call.
Well, this is a really tough one. Quite frankly I'm inclined to agree - I don't think anything will change with kim jong il stepping down. The last thing anyone would want is another 40-50 years of senseless dictatorship.

However, would it be worth the inevitably millions of dead koreans? Furthermore, I believe that another long occupation and rebuilding mission would come at a severe cost of western wealth.
Dead North Koreans -- yes.  Dead South Koreans -- no.  Basically, whatever we choose to do, we need to minimize South Korean deaths.  North Koreans, however, sound like they are broken beyond repair.  Maybe this sounds inhuman or sociopathic, but seriously, when dealing with people conditioned to be pawns of a dictatorship, it just seems like the most practical approach is to stop thinking of them as humans.

The worth of a human life is directly tied to its worth to society.  A person who is mentally beyond any hope of being recuperated into serving a use for a normal society is not really worth anything.
2010-11-24 07:33:22
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Turquoise wrote:

Dead North Koreans -- yes.  Dead South Koreans -- no.  Basically, whatever we choose to do, we need to minimize South Korean deaths.  North Koreans, however, sound like they are broken beyond repair.  Maybe this sounds inhuman or sociopathic, but seriously, when dealing with people conditioned to be pawns of a dictatorship, it just seems like the most practical approach is to stop thinking of them as humans.

The worth of a human life is directly tied to its worth to society.  A person who is mentally beyond any hope of being recuperated into serving a use for a normal society is not really worth anything.
A pipedream. Our RoE's and the treaties we have signed in regards to warfare + the moral viewpoint of our society and our citizens being completely disconnected from reality outside of the western world has lead to an irrational approach of conflict. However; I'm not advocating turning the entire place into a glass crater here, as north korea's situation is different.

Take islamist extremism for example, those people and north koreans are quite the same in terms of conviction. But in this case, the NK government has complete control over it's people and I'm fairly certain that if you can get them to openly surrender the population would lay down arms - much like the japanese in WW2.

On the other end, we have the islamist extremists who have no such loyalties, yet we treat them with "understanding" and by being "humane" (whatever those terms may mean to them).
inane little opines
2010-11-24 07:45:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

A pipedream. Our RoE's and the treaties we have signed in regards to warfare + the moral viewpoint of our society and our citizens being completely disconnected from reality outside of the western world has lead to an irrational approach of conflict. However; I'm not advocating turning the entire place into a glass crater here, as north korea's situation is different.
Maybe the time has come to push forward utilitarianism.  It is the most pragmatic approach to society, and the morals behind it are the most logical.  It's easier said than done, but perhaps, some of these treaties should be revoked.  Also, rules of engagement should be ruthlessly practical so as to maximize the effectiveness of war.

War should be avoided when possible, but when engaging in it, it should be done in a coldly logical manner devoid of any unrealistic ideals or pie-in-the-sky morality.

I suppose our best hope for this will be when war becomes automated enough that people can detach themselves from the emotional reactions we experience when killing.

dayarath wrote:

Take islamist extremism for example, those people and north koreans are quite the same in terms of conviction. But in this case, the NK government has complete control over it's people and I'm fairly certain that if you can get them to openly surrender the population would lay down arms - much like the japanese in WW2.
Good point.

dayarath wrote:

On the other end, we have the islamist extremists who have no such loyalties, yet we treat them with "understanding" and by being "humane" (whatever those terms may mean to them).
Agreed.  Perhaps, we should revise the Geneva Conventions to reflect levels of human consciousness in terms of mental stability.  A true fanatic is not really someone we can classify as a normal human being -- they are merely a tool of an ideology to the point that it becomes a psychosis.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-11-24 07:46:08)

2010-11-24 07:56:11
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Turquoise wrote:

Maybe the time has come to push forward utilitarianism.  It is the most pragmatic approach to society, and the morals behind it are the most logical.  It's easier said than done, but perhaps, some of these treaties should be revoked.  Also, rules of engagement should be ruthlessly practical so as to maximize the effectiveness of war.

War should be avoided when possible, but when engaging in it, it should be done in a coldly logical manner devoid of any unrealistic ideals or pie-in-the-sky morality.
Taking that literally it would end up in us having to turn into that which we pretty much abhorred 70 years ago, you need to strike a balance on both ends. To add complication, values differ in every society.

Turqouise wrote:

I suppose our best hope for this will be when war becomes automated enough that people can detach themselves from the emotional reactions we experience when killing.
Don't think that will ever happen, realistically.

dayarath wrote:

Agreed.  Perhaps, we should revise the Geneva Conventions to reflect levels of human consciousness in terms of mental stability.  A true fanatic is not really someone we can classify as a normal human being -- they are merely a tool of an ideology to the point that it becomes a psychosis.
Well yeah, I agree with this. I believe that in the long run the restrictions we put on ourselves will do more harm than good to any party involved. It prolongs conflict to such an extent that no end is in sight.

Last edited by dayarath (2010-11-24 07:57:23)

inane little opines
2010-11-24 07:56:16
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

War Man wrote:

They're testing Obama 'cause they know he isn't do jack shit except negotiate a cease fire. Why the fuck couldn't the North Koreans wait until we have a tough president so we can seriously fuck them over real bad?

South Korea won't really do much until NK troops march south and attack them directly. But I think NK is just gonna keep on toying with its southern brother and the USA and just laugh at us doing nothing.
Go back to class child.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-24 08:09:42
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

Taking that literally it would end up in us having to turn into that which we pretty much abhorred 70 years ago, you need to strike a balance on both ends. To add complication, values differ in every society.
Well, there's no doubt that people like Hitler went too far, but the main problem in his approach was his own fixations on fear and prejudice.  A true utilitarian would not see the Jews as a threat but rather as capable business leaders and investors.

By the same token, a utilitarian would avoid war most of the time because of how expensive it is.  Now, it is true that much of the world already operates in a utilitarian manner regarding economic imperialism.  The private sector can be somewhat utilitarian, although speculative markets certainly aren't.

dayarath wrote:

Don't think that will ever happen, realistically.
It seems like drone technology can possibly guide us toward warfare that involves machines more than people.

dayarath wrote:

Well yeah, I agree with this. I believe that in the long run the restrictions we put on ourselves will do more harm than good to any party involved. It prolongs conflict to such an extent that no end is in sight.
I wonder if people will ever truly wake up to this.
2010-11-24 08:14:20
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Turquoise wrote:

By the same token, a utilitarian would avoid war most of the time because of how expensive it is.  Now, it is true that much of the world already operates in a utilitarian manner regarding economic imperialism.  The private sector can be somewhat utilitarian, although speculative markets certainly aren't.
Which is also bugging me tbh, often times to the west that means ignoring a problem until it becomes too large to ignore any longer, and often extremely dangerous.

dayarath wrote:

It seems like drone technology can possibly guide us toward warfare that involves machines more than people.
Our dependency on technology is our main weakness. Firstly, the human factor on the ground will never be eliminated because of our amazing problem solving capabilities. Secondly, electronics aren't invincible. An EMP of sorts makes you sit there with all your shiny technology unable to do anything.

And lastly... it's expensive. Seriously, really, really expensive. People are talking about f.ex. homing artillery ammunition and the only thing I can think of is "how the hell are you going to afford that in a real conflict?".

dayarath wrote:

I wonder if people will ever truly wake up to this.
Hopefully before at some point shit really starts to hit the fan.

Last edited by dayarath (2010-11-24 08:14:36)

inane little opines

 

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