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2010-12-15 08:01:00
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Ok, let me rephrase...  Empty some of the universities and replace them with purely technical ones.  I didn't realize some of your schools are even more focused on liberal arts than ours are.
It's absolutely retarded. Could be that only 2 out of 10 students study in technical and practically applicable fields.
I suppose it's not surprising that debts are mounting then.

Ivory tower types don't seem to have a grasp of reality.  Countries like South Korea get the big picture.
2010-12-15 08:02:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

presidentsheep wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:


http://search.ucas.com/cgi-bin/hsrun/se … utton1.y=0
Ok, let me rephrase...  Empty some of the universities and replace them with purely technical ones.  I didn't realize some of your schools are even more focused on liberal arts than ours are.
I'm all for that. The link was to illustrate how many useless degrees are offered, there's more to.
I'm not saying that a degree in an arts/humanities subject is useless, more the fact that those subject areas offer degrees that arent worth the paper theyre printed on.
The way I see it, if it's not employable, it's not worth getting.

Granted, my degree is somewhat that way for entry level work.
2010-12-15 08:10:01
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...
I wouldn't want to cut on all the cultural degrees and stuff and make it impossible to study them but who actually studies those because they're genuinly interested / passionate in the subjects? I can guarantee you that Uzique is going to be one of the few.

Majority of them do it because most cultural degrees and the like aren't work intensive and relatively easy. Furthermore as I stated before, beta subjects should receive way more attention in school and the quality of teaching in them should be vastly improved. I can guarantee you that if you'd have a class of 12-13 year olds walk around the chemistry/biochem lab looking at the stuff students do, atleast 80% of them would say "it looks fun".

Why then, that so few study the subjects? Only one thing to blame and that is highschool education. A good method of teaching and a good teacher will make you interested in mostly any subject.
inane little opines
2010-12-15 08:40:04
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6350|Places 'n such

dayarath wrote:

I wouldn't want to cut on all the cultural degrees and stuff and make it impossible to study them but who actually studies those because they're genuinly interested / passionate in the subjects? I can guarantee you that Uzique is going to be one of the few.

Majority of them do it because most cultural degrees and the like aren't work intensive and relatively easy. Furthermore as I stated before, beta subjects should receive way more attention in school and the quality of teaching in them should be vastly improved. I can guarantee you that if you'd have a class of 12-13 year olds walk around the chemistry/biochem lab looking at the stuff students do, atleast 80% of them would say "it looks fun".

Why then, that so few study the subjects? Only one thing to blame and that is highschool education. A good method of teaching and a good teacher will make you interested in mostly any subject.
Uzique studies english lit from what i remember?
I'm not talking about cutting english degrees at all, far from it. There's a difference between academic humanities and arts degrees and the shitty ones. English, history, art, law, languages etc dont deserve cuts.
Media studies, film studies and similar do.
I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2010-12-15 10:06:19
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

presidentsheep wrote:

dayarath wrote:

I wouldn't want to cut on all the cultural degrees and stuff and make it impossible to study them but who actually studies those because they're genuinly interested / passionate in the subjects? I can guarantee you that Uzique is going to be one of the few.

Majority of them do it because most cultural degrees and the like aren't work intensive and relatively easy. Furthermore as I stated before, beta subjects should receive way more attention in school and the quality of teaching in them should be vastly improved. I can guarantee you that if you'd have a class of 12-13 year olds walk around the chemistry/biochem lab looking at the stuff students do, atleast 80% of them would say "it looks fun".

Why then, that so few study the subjects? Only one thing to blame and that is highschool education. A good method of teaching and a good teacher will make you interested in mostly any subject.
Uzique studies english lit from what i remember?
I'm not talking about cutting english degrees at all, far from it. There's a difference between academic humanities and arts degrees and the shitty ones. English, history, art, law, languages etc dont deserve cuts.
Media studies, film studies and similar do.
English, history and law sure...   You can be a teacher with English, a historian with history, and a lawyer with law.

Art is really the one that should receive the least attention.
2010-12-15 12:17:05
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

presidentsheep wrote:

dayarath wrote:

I wouldn't want to cut on all the cultural degrees and stuff and make it impossible to study them but who actually studies those because they're genuinly interested / passionate in the subjects? I can guarantee you that Uzique is going to be one of the few.

Majority of them do it because most cultural degrees and the like aren't work intensive and relatively easy. Furthermore as I stated before, beta subjects should receive way more attention in school and the quality of teaching in them should be vastly improved. I can guarantee you that if you'd have a class of 12-13 year olds walk around the chemistry/biochem lab looking at the stuff students do, atleast 80% of them would say "it looks fun".

Why then, that so few study the subjects? Only one thing to blame and that is highschool education. A good method of teaching and a good teacher will make you interested in mostly any subject.
Uzique studies english lit from what i remember?
I'm not talking about cutting english degrees at all, far from it. There's a difference between academic humanities and arts degrees and the shitty ones. English, history, art, law, languages etc dont deserve cuts.
Media studies, film studies and similar do.
You're drawing the line arbitrarily.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-15 12:52:43
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6859

presidentsheep wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:


http://search.ucas.com/cgi-bin/hsrun/se … utton1.y=0
Ok, let me rephrase...  Empty some of the universities and replace them with purely technical ones.  I didn't realize some of your schools are even more focused on liberal arts than ours are.
I'm all for that. The link was to illustrate how many useless degrees are offered, there's more to.
I'm not saying that a degree in an arts/humanities subject is useless, more the fact that those subject areas offer degrees that arent worth the paper theyre printed on.
where are you hoping to go again? if you're not going up to trinity college, cantab to do maths then you're looking really fucking stupid right now

didn't you get rejected outright from bristol? maybe you shoudn't be so snobby about course/institutions...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-15 12:54:30
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6859

Turquoise wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:

dayarath wrote:

I wouldn't want to cut on all the cultural degrees and stuff and make it impossible to study them but who actually studies those because they're genuinly interested / passionate in the subjects? I can guarantee you that Uzique is going to be one of the few.

Majority of them do it because most cultural degrees and the like aren't work intensive and relatively easy. Furthermore as I stated before, beta subjects should receive way more attention in school and the quality of teaching in them should be vastly improved. I can guarantee you that if you'd have a class of 12-13 year olds walk around the chemistry/biochem lab looking at the stuff students do, atleast 80% of them would say "it looks fun".

Why then, that so few study the subjects? Only one thing to blame and that is highschool education. A good method of teaching and a good teacher will make you interested in mostly any subject.
Uzique studies english lit from what i remember?
I'm not talking about cutting english degrees at all, far from it. There's a difference between academic humanities and arts degrees and the shitty ones. English, history, art, law, languages etc dont deserve cuts.
Media studies, film studies and similar do.
English, history and law sure...   You can be a teacher with English, a historian with history, and a lawyer with law.

Art is really the one that should receive the least attention.
this is the dumbest post in all 24 pages of this thread.

"you can be a teacher with english" rofl, hahahaha.

it's sad that your view of liberal university-level education is limited to a facilitator of job/employment

education is about more than the paycheck and car you get at the end of it, jesus christ. you're 40+ years old and still have that blue-collar view?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-15 12:56:37
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6859

JohnG@lt wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:

dayarath wrote:

I wouldn't want to cut on all the cultural degrees and stuff and make it impossible to study them but who actually studies those because they're genuinly interested / passionate in the subjects? I can guarantee you that Uzique is going to be one of the few.

Majority of them do it because most cultural degrees and the like aren't work intensive and relatively easy. Furthermore as I stated before, beta subjects should receive way more attention in school and the quality of teaching in them should be vastly improved. I can guarantee you that if you'd have a class of 12-13 year olds walk around the chemistry/biochem lab looking at the stuff students do, atleast 80% of them would say "it looks fun".

Why then, that so few study the subjects? Only one thing to blame and that is highschool education. A good method of teaching and a good teacher will make you interested in mostly any subject.
Uzique studies english lit from what i remember?
I'm not talking about cutting english degrees at all, far from it. There's a difference between academic humanities and arts degrees and the shitty ones. English, history, art, law, languages etc dont deserve cuts.
Media studies, film studies and similar do.
You're drawing the line arbitrarily.
how is it arbitrary? the quantitative entry-requirements for the above-distinguished courses are much much higher, and furthermore the 'type' of institutions that offers the courses is vastly different in teaching/research quality and reputation, as well. there is a huge difference in entry requirement, course difficulty and candidate demand between the 'old' humanities and 'traditional' arts subjects and the new, 'casual' disciplines that many people take.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-15 13:12:43
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:


Uzique studies english lit from what i remember?
I'm not talking about cutting english degrees at all, far from it. There's a difference between academic humanities and arts degrees and the shitty ones. English, history, art, law, languages etc dont deserve cuts.
Media studies, film studies and similar do.
English, history and law sure...   You can be a teacher with English, a historian with history, and a lawyer with law.

Art is really the one that should receive the least attention.
this is the dumbest post in all 24 pages of this thread.

"you can be a teacher with english" rofl, hahahaha.

it's sad that your view of liberal university-level education is limited to a facilitator of job/employment

education is about more than the paycheck and car you get at the end of it, jesus christ. you're 40+ years old and still have that blue-collar view?
I'm 31 and have a white collar job.
2010-12-15 13:20:01
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6859
but you are clearly of the socio-cultural group distinguished in that professor's commentary as "seeing university as a career facilitator; a way up the class ladder; a way of improving one's economic standing", as opposed to the other group that see it as "comfortable, middle-class humanist luxury"- no? your views and statements seem to point very clearly to that. to say that english literature degrees provide a good workforce of english teachers makes as much sense as saying that maths graduates provide a large pool of high-school calculus/algebra tutors. it's an absurdly reduced (and very poorly so, too) view of an old and 'reputable' academic discipline.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-15 13:46:06
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

Uzique wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:


Uzique studies english lit from what i remember?
I'm not talking about cutting english degrees at all, far from it. There's a difference between academic humanities and arts degrees and the shitty ones. English, history, art, law, languages etc dont deserve cuts.
Media studies, film studies and similar do.
You're drawing the line arbitrarily.
how is it arbitrary? the quantitative entry-requirements for the above-distinguished courses are much much higher, and furthermore the 'type' of institutions that offers the courses is vastly different in teaching/research quality and reputation, as well. there is a huge difference in entry requirement, course difficulty and candidate demand between the 'old' humanities and 'traditional' arts subjects and the new, 'casual' disciplines that many people take.
What makes something less desirable than others? If you want to come right down to it, studying film studies is more useful than studying English. Why? More people watch movies and television than read books and newspapers etc. Just because something is traditional does not give it any more weight or value. Am I saying to ban English as a discipline? No, of course not. You just have a very, very conservative view and a reverence for tradition. Not everyone does. I certainly do not. This is why the one sized fits all approach that people are advocating in this thread is, well, stupid. So what if there aren't enough engineers. Pay them more and you'll attract more talent. Simple.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-15 14:05:07
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...
University should be a place for you to indulge in your interests / passions freely regardless of wether or not there's a good career outlook in the respective subject you chose. I believe that is Uzi's point here, and I agree with it - it's a great principle to uphold.

Nevertheless, because society funds it, at the same time it should be a place to facilitate a workforce - giving back as much money to society as it puts in (preferably more). Ideally without hampering anyone from studying what they would like to, but I would consider trying to put as much emphasis and bonuses as possible on that which is needed first and foremost to make it a profitable institution.

Cutting on the system at someone else's expense because a study is deemed less valuable should be a last resort option.

Barring retarded courses such as 'The Life and Works of Victoria Beckham', because I believe it's safe to say this doesn't add anything of intellectual value to either an individual studying it or society.

Last edited by dayarath (2010-12-15 14:09:40)

inane little opines
2010-12-15 14:06:29
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6495|eXtreme to the maX

dayarath wrote:

The point of the system that's in place, and in many other european countries aswell, was to give our society a large, highly educated and skilled workforce
Global mobility has reduced this benefit somewhat, I've taken my two taxpayer funded degrees and emigrated, my neighbour's daughter here plans to go back to India and never pay her HECS debt.

I know plenty of graduates who immediately went abroad and never payed a penny of tax.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-12-15 14:08:53)

Fuck Israel
2010-12-15 14:08:52
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

dayarath wrote:

The point of the system that's in place, and in many other european countries aswell, was to give our society a large, highly educated and skilled workforce
Global mobility has reduced this benefit somewhat, I've taken my two taxpayer funded degrees and emigrated, my neighbour's daughter here plans to go back to India and never pay her HECS debt.
Yeah, that's quite a large problem, nothing a little regulation can't fix though.


editmaster

Last edited by dayarath (2010-12-15 14:11:10)

inane little opines
2010-12-15 14:09:20
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

Uzique wrote:

education is about more than the paycheck and car you get at the end of it, jesus christ. you're 40+ years old and still have that blue-collar view?
You can say that because you have a rather huge safety net.
2010-12-15 14:14:41
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Ilocano wrote:

Uzique wrote:

education is about more than the paycheck and car you get at the end of it, jesus christ. you're 40+ years old and still have that blue-collar view?
You can say that because you have a rather huge safety net.
What's wrong with that though?
inane little opines
2010-12-15 14:19:42
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

dayarath wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Uzique wrote:

education is about more than the paycheck and car you get at the end of it, jesus christ. you're 40+ years old and still have that blue-collar view?
You can say that because you have a rather huge safety net.
What's wrong with that though?
Perspective.

Nothing wrong with it.  Hell, I value my arts and humanities courses as much as my math/science/engineering courses.  But I can say that because I have a reasonable safety net.  I can quit my job now and still provide significantly for my family.  Others, not so much.  Some struggle putting food on the table.  Kids only full meal during the school lunch program.

Would Uzique think the same way if Dad didn't pay for a significant part of his budget.  A home to go to if he can't pay rent.  Not enough funds to party.  The limited earnings typical literary scholars receive.  Etc.   Dad allows him to pursue whatever he wants knowing that if he fails, he has a good safety net.
2010-12-15 14:21:57
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

Uzique wrote:

but you are clearly of the socio-cultural group distinguished in that professor's commentary as "seeing university as a career facilitator; a way up the class ladder; a way of improving one's economic standing", as opposed to the other group that see it as "comfortable, middle-class humanist luxury"- no? your views and statements seem to point very clearly to that. to say that english literature degrees provide a good workforce of english teachers makes as much sense as saying that maths graduates provide a large pool of high-school calculus/algebra tutors. it's an absurdly reduced (and very poorly so, too) view of an old and 'reputable' academic discipline.
Speaking of reductionism, you seem to assume from one statement that I believe English degrees can't apply to other professional jobs that involve writing.

I realize that English degrees can be used for things beyond teaching -- I just didn't feel like listing out every possibility.

That being said, English degrees clearly are much more employable than art degrees.  So, by even recognizing the versatility of an English degree in the workplace, I can still maintain a focus on supporting education that gets people a steady job rather than pretending that the starving artist mentality is feasible to promote on a mass scale.
2010-12-15 14:25:52
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

Turquoise wrote:

Uzique wrote:

but you are clearly of the socio-cultural group distinguished in that professor's commentary as "seeing university as a career facilitator; a way up the class ladder; a way of improving one's economic standing", as opposed to the other group that see it as "comfortable, middle-class humanist luxury"- no? your views and statements seem to point very clearly to that. to say that english literature degrees provide a good workforce of english teachers makes as much sense as saying that maths graduates provide a large pool of high-school calculus/algebra tutors. it's an absurdly reduced (and very poorly so, too) view of an old and 'reputable' academic discipline.
Speaking of reductionism, you seem to assume from one statement that I believe English degrees can't apply to other professional jobs that involve writing.

I realize that English degrees can be used for things beyond teaching -- I just didn't feel like listing out every possibility.

That being said, English degrees clearly are much more employable than art degrees.  So, by even recognizing the versatility of an English degree in the workplace, I can still maintain a focus on supporting education that gets people a steady job rather than pretending that the starving artist mentality is feasible to promote on a mass scale.
We need people to make our coffee at Starbucks and clean our tables...
2010-12-15 14:28:37
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

University should be a place for you to indulge in your interests / passions freely regardless of wether or not there's a good career outlook in the respective subject you chose. I believe that is Uzi's point here, and I agree with it - it's a great principle to uphold.
I don't.  I believe taxpayers' money should be spent in practical pursuits and that practicality in and of itself should be promoted among youth.  A career oriented populace is a better paid and better living populace.  Idealism is for the privileged.

dayarath wrote:

Nevertheless, because society funds it, at the same time it should be a place to facilitate a workforce - giving back as much money to society as it puts in (preferably more). Ideally without hampering anyone from studying what they would like to, but I would consider trying to put as much emphasis and bonuses as possible on that which is needed first and foremost to make it a profitable institution.

Cutting on the system at someone else's expense because a study is deemed less valuable should be a last resort option.

Barring retarded courses such as 'The Life and Works of Victoria Beckham', because I believe it's safe to say this doesn't add anything of intellectual value to either an individual studying it or society.
I would argue what most interests students is largely affected by what media glamorizes.  There were far fewer students interested in forensics before CSI came out.  All you really have to do is culturally emphasize roles that society needs, and the interest comes afterwards.

That being said, what the public tends to favor is somewhat arbitrary and open to manipulation.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-12-15 14:29:06)

2010-12-15 14:28:57
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7038

JohnG@lt wrote:

Uzique wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


You're drawing the line arbitrarily.
how is it arbitrary? the quantitative entry-requirements for the above-distinguished courses are much much higher, and furthermore the 'type' of institutions that offers the courses is vastly different in teaching/research quality and reputation, as well. there is a huge difference in entry requirement, course difficulty and candidate demand between the 'old' humanities and 'traditional' arts subjects and the new, 'casual' disciplines that many people take.
What makes something less desirable than others? If you want to come right down to it, studying film studies is more useful than studying English. Why? More people watch movies and television than read books and newspapers etc. Just because something is traditional does not give it any more weight or value. Am I saying to ban English as a discipline? No, of course not. You just have a very, very conservative view and a reverence for tradition. Not everyone does. I certainly do not. This is why the one sized fits all approach that people are advocating in this thread is, well, stupid. So what if there aren't enough engineers. Pay them more and you'll attract more talent. Simple.
So you're saying we need more film critics? Interesting...
2010-12-15 14:40:24
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Ilocano wrote:

Perspective.

Nothing wrong with it.  Hell, I value my arts and humanities courses as much as my math/science/engineering courses.  But I can say that because I have a reasonable safety net.  I can quit my job now and still provide significantly for my family.  Others, not so much.  Some struggle putting food on the table.  Kids only full meal during the school lunch program.

Would Uzique think the same way if Dad didn't pay for a significant part of his budget.  A home to go to if he can't pay rent.  Not enough funds to party.  The limited earnings typical literary scholars receive.  Etc.   Dad allows him to pursue whatever he wants knowing that if he fails, he has a good safety net.
Breaking this down to the topic I assume you would want gov. funding to be used for people with more urgent needs than this principle? In other words maximizing profits from the educational system.

Every parent who has money is going to be guilty on them wanting their kids to pursue any dreams/talents they have in life though. As long as there is a difference in income they'll always be ahead when it comes to providing for their families.

Turquoise wrote:

I don't.  I believe taxpayers' money should be spent in practical pursuits and that practicality in and of itself should be promoted among youth.  A career oriented populace is a better paid and better living populace.  Idealism is for the privileged.
Idealism is what keeps a society moving forward, not simply a concept reserved for privileged people. Anyhow, if the system would be able to support itself why not allow for these things? We're not exactly living in tough times here if we compare ourselves to any other parts of the world.

Turquoise wrote:

I would argue what most interests students is largely affected by what media glamorizes.  There were far fewer students interested in forensics before CSI came out.  All you really have to do is culturally emphasize roles that society needs, and the interest comes afterwards.

That being said, what the public tends to favor is somewhat arbitrary and open to manipulation.
That's very true, yes. I think you'll have a hard time glamorizing something like maths though .

Last edited by dayarath (2010-12-15 14:41:29)

inane little opines
2010-12-15 14:47:43
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

Idealism is what keeps a society moving forward, not simply a concept reserved for privileged people. Anyhow, if the system would be able to support itself why not allow for these things? We're not exactly living in tough times here if we compare ourselves to any other parts of the world.
Well, this may sound a little pessimistic, but I believe there is going to be a very large levelling out of standard of living in the near future.  The developing world is rising, and the developed world is ailing from long overdue debts.

We may currently be living in a golden age for the First World.  I think this era is coming to a close though.  The future seems to be one of much smaller gaps in quality of life between Europe, North America, South America, and Asia, but much larger gaps between the rich and poor across the board.

It's only a matter of time before this eventually occurs, because the entire notion of a middle class is very recent.  Capital always eventually accumulates at the top -- no matter what your system is.  It only temporarily shifts away from this during periods of growth.

dayarath wrote:

That's very true, yes. I think you'll have a hard time glamorizing something like maths though .
Eh...  it's worth a shot.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-12-15 14:48:10)

2010-12-15 14:51:20
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

dayarath wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Perspective.

Nothing wrong with it.  Hell, I value my arts and humanities courses as much as my math/science/engineering courses.  But I can say that because I have a reasonable safety net.  I can quit my job now and still provide significantly for my family.  Others, not so much.  Some struggle putting food on the table.  Kids only full meal during the school lunch program.

Would Uzique think the same way if Dad didn't pay for a significant part of his budget.  A home to go to if he can't pay rent.  Not enough funds to party.  The limited earnings typical literary scholars receive.  Etc.   Dad allows him to pursue whatever he wants knowing that if he fails, he has a good safety net.
Breaking this down to the topic I assume you would want gov. funding to be used for people with more urgent needs than this principle? In other words maximizing profits from the educational system.

Every parent who has money is going to be guilty on them wanting their kids to pursue any dreams/talents they have in life though. As long as there is a difference in income they'll always be ahead when it comes to providing for their families.
That's cold, hard reality.

If you don't think so, please send me everything you make so you can pay for that 5 million dollar mansion I so want in San Marino.  I won't be working, but just live off of you.  And make sure your kids study hard so that they can then support my kids, as they go and pursue whatever they please they want.  Thanks for your generous egalitarian ideals.

 

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