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2010-12-15 14:54:31
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Turquoise wrote:

Well, this may sound a little pessimistic, but I believe there is going to be a very large levelling out of standard of living in the near future.  The developing world is rising, and the developed world is ailing from long overdue debts.

We may currently be living in a golden age for the First World.  I think this era is coming to a close though.  The future seems to be one of much smaller gaps in quality of life between Europe, North America, South America, and Asia, but much larger gaps between the rich and poor across the board.

It's only a matter of time before this eventually occurs, because the entire notion of a middle class is very recent.  Capital always eventually accumulates at the top -- no matter what your system is.  It only temporarily shifts away from this during periods of growth.
Entirely avoidable if the notion of "skilled workforce" would still be pursued actively and implemented effectively. If such a thing happens it's because we didn't do enough to prevent it.

I think it's a long way off though. With CERN underneath the ground, NASA still up in the air and things like nuclear fusion being developed we're not going to be out of the race by a long shot. All other nations will need, at the very least, decades, to catch up technologically.

There need to be some drastic reforms though yes, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to continue on in the same way.

Last edited by dayarath (2010-12-15 14:56:06)

inane little opines
2010-12-15 14:58:51
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Ilocano wrote:

That's cold, hard reality.

If you don't think so, please send me everything you make so you can pay for that 5 million dollar mansion I so want in San Marino.  I won't be working, but just live off of you.  And make sure your kids study hard so that they can then support my kids, as they go and pursue whatever they please they want.  Thanks for your generous egalitarian ideals.
Could start by purging any sort of welfare system of people abusing it.

Those ideals don't only allow people from privileged families to pursue an education though. The whole point of it is to grant everyone the ability to study anything they might like, whatever their social standing.

Or you could have rich people pay everything as a percentage of their income but you might aswell get rid of the whole notion of guy A earning more than guy B.
inane little opines
2010-12-15 14:59:53
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6794|North Carolina

dayarath wrote:

Entirely avoidable if the notion of "skilled workforce" would still be pursued actively and implemented effectively. If such a thing happens it's because we didn't do enough to prevent it.

I think it's a long way off though. With CERN underneath the ground, NASA still up in the air and things like nuclear fusion being developed we're not going to be out of the race by a long shot. All other nations will need, at the very least, decades, to catch up technologically.

There need to be some drastic reforms though yes, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to continue on in the same way.
I can generally agree with that.  Adapting your workforce to adhere to comparative advantage on a global scale is the surest way to preserve your standard of living as a nation.

Unfortunately, America's system is so slow to change, ridiculously complicated by variances in local management, and has a populace so unrealistic and impatient that I believe we won't adapt in enough time.

I suspect our standard of living will stagnate and slowly decline over the next 20 to 30 years.  We're already seeing the development of a large underclass.
2010-12-15 15:02:06
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

Turquoise wrote:

dayarath wrote:

Entirely avoidable if the notion of "skilled workforce" would still be pursued actively and implemented effectively. If such a thing happens it's because we didn't do enough to prevent it.

I think it's a long way off though. With CERN underneath the ground, NASA still up in the air and things like nuclear fusion being developed we're not going to be out of the race by a long shot. All other nations will need, at the very least, decades, to catch up technologically.

There need to be some drastic reforms though yes, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to continue on in the same way.
I can generally agree with that.  Adapting your workforce to adhere to comparative advantage on a global scale is the surest way to preserve your standard of living as a nation.

Unfortunately, America's system is so slow to change, ridiculously complicated by variances in local management, and has a populace so unrealistic and impatient that I believe we won't adapt in enough time.

I suspect our standard of living will stagnate and slowly decline over the next 20 to 30 years.  We're already seeing the development of a large underclass.
Replaced my immigrants and foreign nationals.  Just look at the makeup of engineers, scientists, doctors, and nurses we have now.
2010-12-15 15:04:50
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

dayarath wrote:

The whole point of it is to grant everyone the ability to study anything they might like, whatever their social standing.
At least here, that's our vast array of scholarships, grants, and loans.  Be smart enough and social standing doesn't matter for the most part.
2010-12-15 15:06:00
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Turquoise wrote:

I can generally agree with that.  Adapting your workforce to adhere to comparative advantage on a global scale is the surest way to preserve your standard of living as a nation.

Unfortunately, America's system is so slow to change, ridiculously complicated by variances in local management, and has a populace so unrealistic and impatient that I believe we won't adapt in enough time.

I suspect our standard of living will stagnate and slowly decline over the next 20 to 30 years.  We're already seeing the development of a large underclass.
I don't really know what exactly went wrong inbetween the generations running from the '20s till the '60s and those from then till now. The latter has, comparatively, done so little and fucked up so much.

I hate putting blame on a party though, with hindsight being 20/20 and all... I'm confident though that once disaster hits enough people there'll be a mass awakening back to reality. Just have to hope it's not going to take an extreme form (like the people calling for revolutions suddenly multiplying...)

Last edited by dayarath (2010-12-15 15:06:47)

inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:08:13
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England
Well, much of the problem with engineering and other math/science oriented degree paths is that math professors seem to take perverse pleasure in fucking over their students as much as possible with 'trick problems' and other bullshit. Calculus is not difficult but what they turn it into is essentially finding 58948094 different ways to say 'The green cat jumped over the brown fence'. That's no fun for anyone except the professor. Oh, and math is nerdy and literature is cool. There's that too.

Edit - it's exceedingly difficult to party your way through school when you have 60 hours a week worth of homework.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-12-15 15:10:31)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-15 15:11:32
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Ilocano wrote:

dayarath wrote:

The whole point of it is to grant everyone the ability to study anything they might like, whatever their social standing.
At least here, that's our vast array of scholarships, grants, and loans.  Be smart enough and social standing doesn't matter for the most part.
And that brings us back to point A, that the excess of people studying "less-useful" degrees is entirely the fault of the way the gov. goes about advertising/promoting the system (imo).

Ilocano wrote:

Replaced my immigrants and foreign nationals.  Just look at the makeup of engineers, scientists, doctors, and nurses we have now.
Not too sure of that, very beta esque studies are filled with 90% native dutch people, some 2nd generation though. I see very few foreign nationals and immigrants walking around in my institute as compared to others.
inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:14:04
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

JohnG@lt wrote:

Well, much of the problem with engineering and other math/science oriented degree paths is that math professors seem to take perverse pleasure in fucking over their students as much as possible with 'trick problems' and other bullshit. Calculus is not difficult but what they turn it into is essentially finding 58948094 different ways to say 'The green cat jumped over the brown fence'. That's no fun for anyone except the professor. Oh, and math is nerdy and literature is cool. There's that too.
Bwahahaha, I see what you did there...

But seriously, I enjoyed those trick questions.  I found it fun finding different approaches to the same problem.  That learning I believe has helped me be a very good System Migrator/Integrator.  I enjoy writing efficient yet versatile code.  My best coding teacher was the one who didn't accept "it just works" code.

But on the other hand, I've hard professors who could explain a problem only one way.  Try to get them to explain the problem more clearly, and they just repeat the same speech they gave moments ago. /facepalm.
2010-12-15 15:14:54
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

Well, much of the problem with engineering and other math/science oriented degree paths is that math professors seem to take perverse pleasure in fucking over their students as much as possible with 'trick problems' and other bullshit. Calculus is not difficult but what they turn it into is essentially finding 58948094 different ways to say 'The green cat jumped over the brown fence'.
This, I don't understand either. Millions of things essentially saying the same thing but yet twenty different ways of saying it. I still don't really know why they want me to clean up a function I've differentiated 5 times. (why would someone want to do that in the first place anyway?)
inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:15:31
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

dayarath wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

dayarath wrote:

The whole point of it is to grant everyone the ability to study anything they might like, whatever their social standing.
At least here, that's our vast array of scholarships, grants, and loans.  Be smart enough and social standing doesn't matter for the most part.
And that brings us back to point A, that the excess of people studying "less-useful" degrees is entirely the fault of the way the gov. goes about advertising/promoting the system (imo).

Ilocano wrote:

Replaced my immigrants and foreign nationals.  Just look at the makeup of engineers, scientists, doctors, and nurses we have now.
Not too sure of that, very beta esque studies are filled with 90% native dutch people, some 2nd generation though. I see very few foreign nationals and immigrants walking around in my institute as compared to others.
I'm referring to the US.  Likewise I've also noticed in the UK and Australia.
2010-12-15 15:17:33
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Ilocano wrote:

I'm referring to the US.  Likewise I've also noticed in the UK and Australia.
I don't really know why they do that either, it's sort of destroying your own market.

You want an educated workforce to support your own economy and then start giving it away to people who will not contribute to your economy. As noble as it sounds it's sort of stabbing yourself.
inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:20:20
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

dayarath wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

I'm referring to the US.  Likewise I've also noticed in the UK and Australia.
I don't really know why they do that either, it's sort of destroying your own market.

You want an educated workforce to support your own economy and then start giving it away to people who will not contribute to your economy. As noble as it sounds it's sort of stabbing yourself.
Why? We have to fill needs here. We have an annual shortage of 60,000 engineers and they have to come from somewhere. We simply import them.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-15 15:22:20
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6859

JohnG@lt wrote:

Uzique wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

You're drawing the line arbitrarily.
how is it arbitrary? the quantitative entry-requirements for the above-distinguished courses are much much higher, and furthermore the 'type' of institutions that offers the courses is vastly different in teaching/research quality and reputation, as well. there is a huge difference in entry requirement, course difficulty and candidate demand between the 'old' humanities and 'traditional' arts subjects and the new, 'casual' disciplines that many people take.
What makes something less desirable than others? If you want to come right down to it, studying film studies is more useful than studying English. Why? More people watch movies and television than read books and newspapers etc. Just because something is traditional does not give it any more weight or value. Am I saying to ban English as a discipline? No, of course not. You just have a very, very conservative view and a reverence for tradition. Not everyone does. I certainly do not. This is why the one sized fits all approach that people are advocating in this thread is, well, stupid. So what if there aren't enough engineers. Pay them more and you'll attract more talent. Simple.
what an utterly ridiculously stupid view of education. i can't even begin to engage with this.

film studies is more useful and is a worthier academic discipline because more people watch films? hahahahahahahaha.

i guess becoming a classically trained musician and theorist is peanuts then, because so many more people listen to pop records?

shut up galt

Last edited by Uzique (2010-12-15 15:22:34)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-12-15 15:22:50
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why? We have to fill needs here. We have an annual shortage of 60,000 engineers and they have to come from somewhere. We simply import them.
Yeah we have similar annual shortages, few weeks ago the boss of Shell was on a talkshow here to emphasize that they need more chemical engineers.

But.. where's your guarantee that they'll end up working in your society? And beyond that, before you start importing the workforce you wish to specialize in why not look closer to home first?
inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:26:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

dayarath wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why? We have to fill needs here. We have an annual shortage of 60,000 engineers and they have to come from somewhere. We simply import them.
Yeah we have similar annual shortages, few weeks ago the boss of Shell was on a talkshow here to emphasize that they need more chemical engineers.

But.. where's your guarantee that they'll end up working in your society? And beyond that, before you start importing the workforce you wish to specialize in why not look closer to home first?
Because people simply aren't choosing those degree paths in college. You can't put a gun to their head and say 'you will take math courses and like it', especially if they go to a private university. So companies here simply import engineers from Bangladesh, India, China etc.

What guarantee? Umm, what other choice would they have? Driving a cab in NYC? If they stop working their visa is revoked.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-15 15:27:35
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6350|Places 'n such

Uzique wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Ok, let me rephrase...  Empty some of the universities and replace them with purely technical ones.  I didn't realize some of your schools are even more focused on liberal arts than ours are.
I'm all for that. The link was to illustrate how many useless degrees are offered, there's more to.
I'm not saying that a degree in an arts/humanities subject is useless, more the fact that those subject areas offer degrees that arent worth the paper theyre printed on.
where are you hoping to go again? if you're not going up to trinity college, cantab to do maths then you're looking really fucking stupid right now

didn't you get rejected outright from bristol? maybe you shoudn't be so snobby about course/institutions...
Got an offer from:
Bristol
KCL
Glasgow (physics)
Glasgow (history)
Birmingham

Turned down the two Glasgows and Bristol (shit university imo).

This year:
UCL
KCL
Birmingham
Hull (pointless backup)

Got told by Kings and Birmingham on the phone that i would have usually got my place on a near miss basis if it weren't for the huge numbers of applicants that year particularly.

Where do you go again? Oxford? Cambridge?

Last edited by presidentsheep (2010-12-15 15:35:46)

I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2010-12-15 15:32:58
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

Because people simply aren't choosing those degree paths in college. You can't put a gun to their head and say 'you will take math courses and like it', especially if they go to a private university. So companies here simply import engineers from Bangladesh, India, China etc.
As I said before though, have a group of 12-13 year olds walk through a lab of any sciency study and then have them walk through the desk job of your average person with a degree in the cultural stuffs and I guarantee atleast 80% will say they'll choose the lab.

Do more to interest kids in highschool in those subjects. Put emphasis on them, make them more aware of the bonuses (job prospects etc), have them do more lab hours and revise the teaching methods of people teaching those subjects.

Nobody gives a shit about frank who wants to know what colours he's going to get if he randomly sticks his hand in a jar of balls. Wouldn't it be a way better idea to try and tunnel equations into something kids can relate to?

There is so much wrong with education in highschool regarding the beta subjects, they can improve on literally everything.

JohnG@lt wrote:

What guarantee? Umm, what other choice would they have? Driving a cab in NYC? If they stop working their visa is revoked.
That they finish the study and don't end up working and living back in the place where they came from. It means you paid for something you're not getting any benefit from.
inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:47:14
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

dayarath wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Because people simply aren't choosing those degree paths in college. You can't put a gun to their head and say 'you will take math courses and like it', especially if they go to a private university. So companies here simply import engineers from Bangladesh, India, China etc.
As I said before though, have a group of 12-13 year olds walk through a lab of any sciency study and then have them walk through the desk job of your average person with a degree in the cultural stuffs and I guarantee atleast 80% will say they'll choose the lab.

Do more to interest kids in highschool in those subjects. Put emphasis on them, make them more aware of the bonuses (job prospects etc), have them do more lab hours and revise the teaching methods of people teaching those subjects.

Nobody gives a shit about frank who wants to know what colours he's going to get if he randomly sticks his hand in a jar of balls. Wouldn't it be a way better idea to try and tunnel equations into something kids can relate to?

There is so much wrong with education in highschool regarding the beta subjects, they can improve on literally everything.

JohnG@lt wrote:

What guarantee? Umm, what other choice would they have? Driving a cab in NYC? If they stop working their visa is revoked.
That they finish the study and don't end up working and living back in the place where they came from. It means you paid for something you're not getting any benefit from.
End result of your idealism would be the destruction of your carrot. Technical jobs pay well because there are shortages, not because they are inherently more difficult.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-15 15:47:35
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|7056

dayarath wrote:

As I said before though, have a group of 12-13 year olds walk through a lab of any sciency study and then have them walk through the desk job of your average person with a degree in the cultural stuffs and I guarantee atleast 80% will say they'll choose the lab.
Better example.

Take a group of 12-13 year olds to a Microsoft Software Architect conference.  No need to go inside.  Just have them hang around the lobby and  see the valets taking the cars of Microsoft employees.  Then, take them to a BestBuy or some such service job retail store conference and have them hang around the valet area as well.
2010-12-15 15:48:36
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6713|New Haven, CT

presidentsheep wrote:

Uzique wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:


I'm all for that. The link was to illustrate how many useless degrees are offered, there's more to.
I'm not saying that a degree in an arts/humanities subject is useless, more the fact that those subject areas offer degrees that arent worth the paper theyre printed on.
where are you hoping to go again? if you're not going up to trinity college, cantab to do maths then you're looking really fucking stupid right now

didn't you get rejected outright from bristol? maybe you shoudn't be so snobby about course/institutions...
Got an offer from:
Bristol
KCL
Glasgow (physics)
Glasgow (history)
Birmingham

Turned down the two Glasgows and Bristol (shit university imo).

This year:
UCL
KCL
Birmingham
Hull (pointless backup)

Got told by Kings and Birmingham on the phone that i would have usually got my place on a near miss basis if it weren't for the huge numbers of applicants that year particularly.

Where do you go again? Oxford? Cambridge?
he pretended he goes to Oxford but really attends Royal Holloway
2010-12-15 15:51:41
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

End result of your idealism would be the destruction of your carrot. Technical jobs pay well because there are shortages, not because they are inherently more difficult.
And as it's an ever expanding business and society becomes more and more dependant on technology it's a safe bet to specialize in it. The paygrade itself isn't what matters that much, it's the role you fulfill in the market.

What you have now is that people don't seem sure of the role our society needs to take and it's trying to do a little bit of everything and import all the shortages. That is a far faster road to destruction.
inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:53:03
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

dayarath wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

End result of your idealism would be the destruction of your carrot. Technical jobs pay well because there are shortages, not because they are inherently more difficult.
And as it's an ever expanding business and society becomes more and more dependant on technology it's a safe bet to specialize in it. The paygrade itself isn't what matters that much, it's the role you fulfill in the market.

What you have now is that people don't seem sure of the role our society needs to take and it's trying to do a little bit of everything and import all the shortages. That is a far faster road to destruction.
People said the same thing about computer science ten years ago.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-15 15:56:11
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

People said the same thing about computer science ten years ago.
Since the industrial revolution there's been an upward trend in the need for technically schooled people that's only been going up faster. Everyone benefits from technology; you do stuff faster, easier, cheaper and it can be used everywhere. It's definitely expanding and will be for a long time to come.

Last edited by dayarath (2010-12-15 15:56:41)

inane little opines
2010-12-15 15:57:44
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England
Also, kill the monetary reward for engineering and I'll just go become a quant. I didn't pick the field to subvert myself to the 'greater good'.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

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