BF2S Forums The AA is absolutely awful (I would swear if I were allowed)

atlvolunteer wrote:

Although most TKs when you are in a jet or helo from errant AA, they are sometimes from when someone runs into you with another jet or helo (whether accidental or not, although I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally ram their own teammates in midair).

Yes, yes. Please read the entire topic before posting. We've been over this. Thanks.

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

DrDestruction wrote:

Okay, you know what?  Im going to end this right now with a little example.

chuyskywalker, let's say you are playing Karkand with me, and we are assaulting an outpost.  We are both waiting by the hotel outpost, Im waiting outside the hotel outpost, and you are preparing to assault it.

You run in the Hotel outpost.  Suddenly, your screen switches to the map, and it says on the upper left of the screen:

DrDestruction [Teamkills] Chuyskywalker

What do you do?  Let's say that you assumed I shot you so that I could cap the flag and get points for it.  After all, how else could you have died?  I was standing right with you and I knew you were a friendly.

Now I get all mad at you - I want to know your reasoning behind punishing me, because I simply threw a grenade into the outpost and you suddenly ran into it before I could warn you, and it blew you up.  You apologize for your mistake.

Now, lets assume that the tag said:

DrDestruction [Hand Grenade] chuyskywalker

Would you have maybe realized what had happened, and forgiven me?  Again, I would hope so.

See the point?  The game DOES NOT specify which weapon killed you in the case of a TK.  THIS is the major problem - rogue AA is not the only thing that can kill a jet.  Another jet crashing into you can kill a jet, a rogue tank shell can kill a jet, hell, how about a friendly machine gun?  That can kill a jet, perhaps fired from the top of a tank by a friendly that didn't see you.  Bottom line is that it doesn't specify, and because of that, you cannot expect mercy when you TK a jet by accident from AA.

It is your mindset exactly - "Well what else could possibly kill me?" - that causes people to punish for these sorts of things - they simply feel it was done on purpose.

With that all said, dsb, I completely agree.  Aircraft TK's are a bitch and while I dont think they should be punishable either way (jets TKing teammates or teammates TKing jets)(except for shooting someone/the plane to get the plane for yourself), it's a fact of life that must be dealt with.

There are worse things in BF2.  Get over it.

When being chased by a enemy jet, I doubt you'd be flying slow enough and LOW enough for a tank to shell you, a MG weapon mount to shoot you, and so on. Use your head.


Thanks for the back-up, Chuy. Atleast you read my post

Use my head?  Funny coming from someone who didn't think too well about the possibilities.  Don't be so narrow minded.

In the way BF2 is working as of now, you could literally put a single bullet into any aircraft, and if that plane a few seconds later smashes into a wall or something, you could get the TK.

This means that, lets say I see a plane flying over the hill, so I lead it properly and shoot it once before figuring out it's a friendly.  Bam.  The pilot lags or doesn't pay attention, and smacks into the ground or something.  It says I TKed, because I hit him with one bullet by accident.  No missiles.

Ive seen plenty of tanks shell planes.  All's that needs to happen is the plane line the tank up for a run (which I have seen planes line up their friendly tanks because in a plane, its hard to see what is what, and not everyone uses the minimap) and the tank turn up and blast a shell into it.  Don't ask me why you've apparently never seen it.  By the way, no missiles.

Friendly collisions?  They happen all the time!  Just the other day, actually, a member of my clan and I were taking off side by side on Gulf of Oman on the MEC team.  I continued to fly straight after takeoff, as I usually do (for a few seconds, to get my bearings), and, flying the bomber, I was on the inside track in reference to the battlefield.  My clan mate, a jumpy little kid, however, decided to immediately turn left.  We smacked into each other, and I got the TK for it - he punished me, thinking I shot him down on purpose.  Air collision, neither of us saw it coming and didn't know what happened until AFTERWARDS, when I asked why he punished.  We both could have (and he did) assume it was a missile.  No missile, however.

Helo's are another problem.  I can't tell you how many times (flying low, of course) that I've run into or almost run into helos that are flying higher than me and for some reason lose alot of altitude very quickly.  Other times, I run into helos that I don't even see because Im dogfighting and not looking at my minimap too much.  No missiles.

Yes, I will give you that missiles probably make up for about half of jet TK's, but fact is there are WAYYYY too many possibilities out there that you can just ASSUME it was a missile.

Please think my point through next time before telling me to use my head.

These forums are getting worse every day.  People are opening their posts with derogatory comments.  Stop that.

The fact of the matter is 97% of air TKs are unintentional.  I don't really have a solution other than fix the AA.  Air-air collisions are going to be inevitable in such crowded airspace.

Last edited by beeng (2005-10-26 11:27:41)

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

DrDestruction wrote:

Please think my point through next time before telling me to use my head.

Think through your points? PLEASE!
You need to think through everyone elses points!
We are talking about times where the only possible thing it could be is a missle.
We have already gone over that YES these are all possibilities, BUT a tank/MG cannot take out a plane at it's normal altitude, and it most definitely will not be flying low enough to get shot by a tank, if it's being chased by an enemy plane!
Collisions are possible! but there would be much evidence if it were a collision. you'd have to be blind not to see it.
We are not talking about taking off of the runway.
If you crashed into a building and it said somebody TKed you. It would OBVIOUS what happened.

let's do it this way.
If you were in the air.. fairly high altitude being chased by an enemy. you get TKed. Did a Tank shell hit you? did an MG kill you? did a helo run into you? did a friendly plane run into you? you don't see any other plane wrecks falling to the ground or helo wreckage. What is the OBVIOUS answer?

What are you talking about?  I dont know what servers you play on, but on pretty much every single server I play on with jets, the people flying the jets are 300 ft and below, and all are doing bombing runs or flying low to the ground.

If you can't hit a jet that low with a machine gun, say, on an FAV or tank, I feel bad for you.  Need to brush up on your skills.  As for killing a plane with one?  Did you READ my post?  I said it only takes a bullet and the plane to hit something however small (the cranes are notorious plane killers) and you get the TK for it - assuming you accidentally hit the crane you DO NOT see, maybe clip it with your wing, then it says you were TKed, it doesnt automatically mean a missile.

See, the problem is you are so narrow minded that you only think a missile can hit a plane.  Again, I dont know what servers you play on.  The planes in all the servers I play on fly low, sometimes slow, and they bomb - plenty of opportunity for almost ANYTHING with a trigger on it to nick a plane.

I'd pay money to see someone hit a plane with a tank shell. Anyone who says they have is full of crap. Thats my opinion and I'm stickin to it! ha. what was this thread about?

WAIT! I did kill one with a slingshot the other day? a knife? In all the hours I've lost of my life playing this game, which I love, I've never ever seen a jet killed by an APC or a tank. Never even seen it on the little "so and so kills so and so with so and so" thing on the side of the screen.

now is where you tell me its just because I suck.... yesss masta

Last edited by dshak (2005-10-26 13:55:56)

I'm gonna stick with slay on this one, but I think the topic has been covered and we're obviously going to simply need to settle on not agreeing about some things.

From *my* experience, an unidentified (as in, gosh, did I hit that other plane/ground?) TK while in a plane is > 90% likely to have been a rouge AA missle more than anything else especially if you're in a dog fight because you know some teammate is down on the ground thinking "I bet I can stinger that enemy jet!".

As for you seeing these amazing tank shell/MGer's taking out planes left, right, and center, you must only play on some leet ass servers. (After all my hours, hitting a jet with a MG is rediculous. Only if, like in tank, they are coming right freaking at you with relatively low slope and slow.) Not too mention tanks are often much more concerned with what's on the ground with them than what is flying about.

dshak wrote:

I'd pay money to see someone hit a plane with a tank shell. Anyone who says they have is full of crap. Thats my opinion and I'm stickin to it! ha. what was this thread about?

WAIT! I did kill one with a slingshot the other day? a knife? In all the hours I've lost of my life playing this game, which I love, I've never ever seen a jet killed by an APC or a tank. Never even seen it on the little "so and so kills so and so with so and so" thing on the side of the screen.

now is where you tell me its just because I suck.... yesss masta

I've killed a few jets with a tank, but they were flowing slow enough that they could have landed on the top of my tank, AND they were flying so low, I thought they were going to land, but they were just a noob pilot trying to bomb me. there was one that was flying at decent speed.. but it was on Kubra Dam and I was in the lower dam tunnel and he tried flying through the tunnel.. so that was easy.
Also, I've taken one out with an FAV while it was taking off.. but that's no hard task. and that's also not what we are discussing. Perhaps DrDestruction is talking about it in his own little world but.. whatever.
I'm done with this topic.

atlvolunteer wrote:

I just had to put in my $.02 again.
Personally, it doesn't matter what caused the accidental TK; you still shouldn't punish for it.  Punishing someone for an accidental TK is BS.

The point that DrDestruction and I have been trying to make is that YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW IT'S ACCIDENTAL.  Personally, when I don't know, I don't punish, but not everybody works the same way.

Just trying to get everybody to see a different point of view.

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

And the point I'm trying to make is: when you're in the air (in a dogfight or simply being chased by enemy planes) it's fairly easy to tell what it was and know that it was not intentional.

Maybe for you, but you aren't the one doing the punishing are you?  We're talking about the other guy here, into whom you really have no insight.  Nor do I for that matter, I'm just posing a possibility that might make it easier for you to stay cool if you are punished.

But, let's just agree to disagree...I don't see anyone changing anyone's mind here.

The same as for helos also applies for APC which are usually only shielded against small arms fire and shrapnel from artillery. No more losing battles with some 100 rounds AA against 3-4 rounds APC with the AA-tank going up in flames as a result if EA takes these facts into account (and code).
Sure, I don’t expect the helicopter to go down as easily as they are to be expected to in RL (well it’s game after all) but to have an enemy air asset as invulnerable to AA fire is plain stupid or – considering the air wings punch  – bad balancing and/or coding. On the one hand BF2 it’s a just a game no simulator for weapons systems – neither working radar here, nor semiautomatic tracking for the AA - but that would be a little bit unfair for our airborne friends, wouldn’t it? On the other hand, a little more realism concerning ammo impact would help the balance AND make AA an useful asset in the BF2 commanders inventory.

Note: Unlike in RL in BF2 I play AA-vehicles only for the fun or for hunting enemy infantry - if I want to get rid of enemy helos I take an APC, those at least got the realistic punch (although not the rate of fire of an RL AA-gun) – although that almost hurts my pride as a Reserve Officer of the AAA :-)

Last edited by pogled (2005-10-28 17:17:48)

I ask this: How easy is it to shoot down a friendly plane on purpose in the first place? If you're in a plane and get teamkilled, there is only three ways that it could have happned.
1) Friendly pilot happens to shoot you down, (intentional or by accident.)
2) Really freakin' unlucky shot from a friendly tank.
3) Awol AA missiles.

I'd say that 99 out of 10, (yes I do mean 99 out of 10,) times it is awol AA. It sickened me when one of my crazy missiles proceeded to blow up a loaded friendly Blackhawk. There needs to be some move made to stop these missiles from being so evil.