Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7060|Canberra, AUS

UnkleRukus wrote:

War Man wrote:

Nic wrote:

Why?
It just seems just too small, rather it be slightly more, like the 200 area.

Anyway, why aren't we also bothering to save other fucking countries while at it, why just Africa? If we are gonna be fucking policeman, we may as well deal with Syria, Iran, and other countries.
You must not be familiar with the atrocities happening in the Congo region. Those people make Iran look like a bunch of fucking kittens.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3869489.stm

Good representation of what's happened in the region in the past few years. That's just one out of countless stories and articles.
i defy anyone to name a worse bunch of folk than lra and its ilk.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6797|'Murka

Shocking wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


America doesn't even get 25% of its oil from the middle east lol. Isn't it mostly domestic, canadian and mexican oil?
What?! We don't get ALL Of our oil from middle eastern despots?! Someone should really tell Dilbert. He'll be heartbroken.

Just read that statistic (about Africa) in a Foreign Policy article for class. It's one reason why the Bush administration was pushing Africa policy so hard: to give more options away from middle eastern oil sources.
I wonder why Africa is seen as a better source for oil. Much of what I've seen of the oil business in Africa and the people who live around it is bad. Really bad. Because of the internal division they probably won't use it as a bargaining chip against foreign nations (which, I reckon, is the reason why countries are looking for alternatives to ME oil), but on an ethical point of view it's much worse.

You could run into a lot of trouble there.
The Chinese already have.

I suppose part of the thought is that economic growth will spur the reform necessary for improved governance. But that will take at least two generations.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6385|...

FEOS wrote:

Shocking wrote:

FEOS wrote:


What?! We don't get ALL Of our oil from middle eastern despots?! Someone should really tell Dilbert. He'll be heartbroken.

Just read that statistic (about Africa) in a Foreign Policy article for class. It's one reason why the Bush administration was pushing Africa policy so hard: to give more options away from middle eastern oil sources.
I wonder why Africa is seen as a better source for oil. Much of what I've seen of the oil business in Africa and the people who live around it is bad. Really bad. Because of the internal division they probably won't use it as a bargaining chip against foreign nations (which, I reckon, is the reason why countries are looking for alternatives to ME oil), but on an ethical point of view it's much worse.

You could run into a lot of trouble there.
The Chinese already have.
Yup that's true.

FEOS wrote:

I suppose part of the thought is that economic growth will spur the reform necessary for improved governance. But that will take at least two generations.
The money isn't trickling down and any growth is either abused or mismanaged. This has been happening for many decades. To use another thread in the context, you were saying the mistake of Israel/Palestine has been created many times in the past, for example Iraq... well, nowhere in the world it's more apparant and devastating than in many African countries.

Replacing one bad with another isn't going to get the US anywhere. I'd hope looking to Africa is going to be a short term solution.
inane little opines
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6797|'Murka

Africa's a whole different kettle of fish. The tribal society and expectations of graft are much worse than anywhere else...but our diplomats and developers would be going in understanding and accounting for that (this time). The problem with either oil or cash is that both are easily embezzled by the governments there (again, has to be taken into account in the development planning).

The key is keeping the money out of the governments' hands directly, working with NGOs and the UN to get the development taken care of. Once the people see the value of the natural resource, they will not allow the graft to occur. That's why it takes at least a couple of generations...to grow the graft tendencies out of the people and let the "old guard" die off.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6385|...

FEOS wrote:

Africa's a whole different kettle of fish. The tribal society and expectations of graft are much worse than anywhere else...but our diplomats and developers would be going in understanding and accounting for that (this time). The problem with either oil or cash is that both are easily embezzled by the governments there (again, has to be taken into account in the development planning).

The key is keeping the money out of the governments' hands directly, working with NGOs and the UN to get the development taken care of. Once the people see the value of the natural resource, they will not allow the graft to occur. That's why it takes at least a couple of generations...to grow the graft tendencies out of the people and let the "old guard" die off.
The question is can you? If we look at Nigeria none of the oil investment has really gone anywhere near the people. Oil companies generally don't want to hire locals and instead fly in their own workers or experts, pipelines are punctured by locals and its siphoned off to fund warlords. The discovery and exploitation of oil in that country has done nothing but increase tensions between tribes and promote conflict - with poverty being just as widespread, if not more, as before it was discovered. This situation can be found in many African countries. If not, other nations' oil reserves are held by select closed groups that hoard all the wealth and can be prone to infighting. Beyond that the discovery and exploitation of valuable natural resources in this continent has often gone at the disadvantage of other industries, which got either abandoned or marginalized to the detriment of economies.

I'm rather sceptical of the idea that you could get anything done there. How is this 'new approach' going to work? How are you going to invest in the populace if oil companies generally aren't interested in the local workforce and when there's a sort of aristocracy which you'll have to pay to get anywhere near the resources? It's not like they'll invest in their countries if you ask them nicely... yet they own the fields so you can't avoid them. Do you intend to micromanage oil companies' dealings with govs. like that of Angola? I just can't see how this is going to work. 200 years of exploiting resources in Africa with varying approaches and rarely, if ever, it's had a positive result.

We have been aware of the corruption there for decades. 'Accounting' for it on paper is something wholly different than actually dealing with it on the ground. So far we've 'dealt' with it by bribery and support of dictators that let us get to their resources, exacerbating the problem. Yet there hasn't really been any other way to get to the resources.

It's going to require one hell of a plan and an enormous amount of investment to get this right, it's not going to be 'cheap oil' that's for sure.
inane little opines
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6797|'Murka

Read the second paragraph of my previous post.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6385|...
I don't see how you're going to avoid the government. They own the oil fields.

If not, warlords own the field.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-10-17 14:50:01)

inane little opines
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6797|'Murka

Shocking wrote:

I don't see how you're going to avoid the government. They own the oil fields.

If not, warlords own the field.
The government can't exploit the fields on their own. You make the extraction agreements contingent upon certain conditions.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6385|...
If the gov doesn't like the demands they'll look to the Chinese.

As far as I know they're generally looking more towards the Chinese than us now. The reasoning being; they've had over 300 years of dealings with the west and nothing good came of it. Can't blame them for thinking that way.
inane little opines
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6797|'Murka

Shocking wrote:

If the gov doesn't like the demands they'll look to the Chinese.

As far as I know they're generally looking more towards the Chinese than us now. The reasoning being; they've had over 300 years of dealings with the west and nothing good came of it. Can't blame them for thinking that way.
They're looking for whoever will work with them. China has packed up and left in the night in some places (Angola, I think) because they got tired of the corruption and laziness endemic there.

That's why nothing good has come of it in the post-colonial period.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6385|...

FEOS wrote:

Shocking wrote:

If the gov doesn't like the demands they'll look to the Chinese.

As far as I know they're generally looking more towards the Chinese than us now. The reasoning being; they've had over 300 years of dealings with the west and nothing good came of it. Can't blame them for thinking that way.
They're looking for whoever will work with them. China has packed up and left in the night in some places (Angola, I think) because they got tired of the corruption and laziness endemic there.

That's why nothing good has come of it in the post-colonial period.
While that's true we haven't done much to help the situation, either (or instead, worsened it - like some companies have). Either way, as I said, can't blame them for thinking that.

Perhaps something good will come of it, given the plan works and it's executed properly, but you're being a bit too optimistic with the two generations thing. It's more likely going to take double that amount of time.
inane little opines
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6797|'Murka

Shocking wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Shocking wrote:

If the gov doesn't like the demands they'll look to the Chinese.

As far as I know they're generally looking more towards the Chinese than us now. The reasoning being; they've had over 300 years of dealings with the west and nothing good came of it. Can't blame them for thinking that way.
They're looking for whoever will work with them. China has packed up and left in the night in some places (Angola, I think) because they got tired of the corruption and laziness endemic there.

That's why nothing good has come of it in the post-colonial period.
While that's true we haven't done much to help the situation, either (or instead, worsened it - like some companies have). Either way, as I said, can't blame them for thinking that.

Perhaps something good will come of it, given the plan works and it's executed properly, but you're being a bit too optimistic with the two generations thing. It's more likely going to take double that amount of time.
Notice I said "at least." That's not optimism.

Plus, take into account the existing foreign aid programs going into those countries to augment any commercial help they may get...

Economic reform is the key to democratic reform.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10 … more-60422

"The Pentagon could be in a race to prevent a major rebel attack on African civilians, aid groups believe. That’s one disturbing possibility behind President Barack Obama’s announcement of a new U.S. military mission to Central Africa."

Hey Feos I remember you said you were in the military and youre obviously pretty experienced with this kind of stuff, I'm curious as to who you think they are sending into Africa.  Would they be Army Green Berets?
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6539|what

"The Pentagon could be in a race to prevent a major rebel attack on African civilians, aid groups believe. That’s one disturbing possibility behind President Barack Obama’s announcement of a new U.S. military mission to Central Africa."

Uh-huh.

Another disturbing posibility is that Obama just watched District 9 and is sending troops in to fight the fookin' prawns.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7161|Moscow, Russia

Dilbert_X wrote:

Pretty sure China has locked in most of it already.
that is why freedom and democracy should be implemented in africa asap. by force where necessary.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6797|'Murka

Spearhead wrote:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/is-the-u-s-in-a-race-to-prevent-a-rebel-assault-in-africa-ready/#more-60422

"The Pentagon could be in a race to prevent a major rebel attack on African civilians, aid groups believe. That’s one disturbing possibility behind President Barack Obama’s announcement of a new U.S. military mission to Central Africa."

Hey Feos I remember you said you were in the military and youre obviously pretty experienced with this kind of stuff, I'm curious as to who you think they are sending into Africa.  Would they be Army Green Berets?
Actually, I believe it was mentioned they were from one of the Special Forces Groups in one of the news reports...so yes.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7102

Spearhead wrote:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/is-the-u-s-in-a-race-to-prevent-a-rebel-assault-in-africa-ready/#more-60422

"The Pentagon could be in a race to prevent a major rebel attack on African civilians, aid groups believe. That’s one disturbing possibility behind President Barack Obama’s announcement of a new U.S. military mission to Central Africa."

Hey Feos I remember you said you were in the military and youre obviously pretty experienced with this kind of stuff, I'm curious as to who you think they are sending into Africa.  Would they be Army Green Berets?
If they send any "advisors" it's usually green berets as they're main job isnt to be uber badass kill everyone, they train locals to be uber badass and kill everyone.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|6085
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/20 … 23703.html

The United States has offered bounties of up to $5m each for fugitive Ugandan warlord Joseph Kony and some of his top aides in the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) rebel group.

The announcement on Wednesday came just as Uganda and Washington said they had been forced to suspend their two-year hunt for Kony in the jungles of the Central African Republic, after rebels seized power in Bangui.

The US State Department said Kony, along with aides Okot Odhiambo and Dominic Ongwen, had been cited under the department's newly expanded War Crimes Rewards Programme.

Under the programme, the State Department offers rewards for information leading to the arrest, transfer, or conviction of such fugitives.

The LRA "for almost 20 years has tormented and terrorised children across Uganda, the DRC, the Central African Republic and South Sudan. It has to stop", John Kerry, the US secretary of state, said.

He admitted Kony and his cronies would "not be easy to find".

"The LRA is broken down into small bands of rebels, scattered throughout dense jungle, hidden by dense canopy, controlling territory through tactics of fear and intimidation," he said in a column in the Huffington Post.

The LRA was "one of the world's most brutal armed groups", Stephen Rapp, ambassador for Global Criminal Justice, told reporters, unveiling the rewards.

'Stop Kony'

Kony, who was ejected from Uganda along with his rebel group in 2005, is wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes.

The warlord and a few hundred followers are now believed to roam the remote jungle straddling the borders of South Sudan, Democratic Republic of Congo and Central African Republic.

His guerrillas are accused of abducting children to use as fighters and sex slaves, and of hacking off victims' limbs as a method of intimidation and revenge.

Kony was the subject of a film, Kony 2012, with a campaign entitled "Stop Kony", by non-governmental organisation Invisible Children.

The online viral campaign last year has been watched by almost 100 million viewers on YouTube.

"Thanks in part to last year's Kony video about the LRA, [crimes committed by Kony are] a reality that millions of Americans now know," said Kerry.

Others named on Wednesday by the State Department under the programme are Sylvestre Mudacumura, leader of the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda.

It also cited nine fugitives from the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida
5 million bucks each?  Guess I'm headed to Africa
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|6085
crime does pay kids.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
only last week it was reported in the news that the hunt for kony has pretty much been abandoned, because of a lack of real political organization/cooperation on the ground. who woulda guessed a self-indulgent propaganda film made by american christian fundie nutjobs wouldn't change the world forever?!?!?! i was looking forward to their cult-like messianic revolution
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7102
jacking it in san diego didn't help his cause.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|6385|Vortex Ring State

Cybargs wrote:

jacking it in san diego didn't help his cause.
can't exactly hurt it either, considering it was probably a fool's errand either way

what are you going to do, bribe all the other warlords into revealing his position?
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,990|7018|949

: bumping a topic with relevant and current info

Not : spamming a topic with nonsense because you are add spazoids.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,068|7158|PNW

I'd like to just comment after the fact that using the phrase "out of the blue" is cute when talking about a Democrat.

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