America is Real-Life 1984.

2013-06-11 04:42:21

#76

13/f/taiwan: Member; +940|6085

"staged event" take it to the conspiracy theory thread

1 and 2) we have "freedom and democracy" albiet it is limited, we are not exactly living in north korea. there are means to stifle corruption. while the 'geenie has been out of the bottle' we never really knew to what extent it was. the whole "it won't change a thing" mentality is very backwards and self-perpetuating. if you have that mindset then nothing will change.

i'll use the classic example most americans learned in school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle

2013-06-11 14:55:57

#77

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5744|London, England

I think the anger over the NSA leaks is pretty funny. Don't people understand what the foundation of Progressivism is? It's rooted in Plato's Republic: people are generally stupid and not to be trusted and thus should be led and controlled by people who are better, wiser, more educated. In order to control, one must first organize. In order to organize, one must gather data explaining how the system works, and then use that data in order to find patterns of activity. Modern police forces use this every day via surveillance, statistics and historical precedents. Hysterical people begged politicians to make them feel safer, and they're now surprised that this is the end result? How did they think expanding the role of the nations police forces was going to play out? Annoyances like the TSA checkpoints at airports? No, we've armed our police to the teeth with military surplus weapons, given them outsized amounts of data to sift through, all of which consists of digging into our private lives to search for wrong doing. The police state is in full effect now. It's what the Progressive movement (both Republicans and Democrats are Progressives, whether you want to believe it or not) wanted all along.

One might think that I condone "PRISM" after reading the previous paragraph, but I don't, I'm just not surprised at all by its exposure. I think the people who feel betrayed, the ones that call themselves liberal because it's better than associating themselves with "old, rich, white guys", are naive simpletons who never actually understood what they were voting for. Stuff like gay rights was always the superficial crap floating around on the surface that people could latch onto easily. The underlying message was always about pushing forward the Hamiltonian view of government.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2013-06-11 15:50:15

#78

Spearhead: Gulf coast redneck hippy; +731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida

It might provide a little more clarity if you just called it socialism, which is pretty much what it is. Progressive caucus in congress = left wing socialism. Of course what you're saying there is that both the GOP and dems have been socialist since the New Deal. Not arguing with that.

With that being said I'm not sure its as clear cut as you make it out to be. I think many people who are Dems, vote for left wing economic policy etc. are some of the same people who have been protesting/voting against this for years. In fact according to Nate Silvers article today more Democrats voted against the 2011 Patriot act than Republicans, even though they are supposedly the anti-government libertarian party after 2010. Even though they had the Presidency.

So I think a better way to say what you said is that there is a distinction between low-information voters and everyone else. People who've never heard of Bradley Manning or the Utah Data Center or AT+T's spying center disclosed in 2008, etc. etc. etc. So if you are not totally naive you already knew this was going on. I really don't think going back to 1912 or 1850 has anything to do with it.

2013-06-11 15:55:01

#79

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5972

Progressivism and Plato. Way to knock it out of the park.

2013-06-11 15:56:21

#80

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5744|London, England

Macbeth wrote:
Progressivism and Plato. Way to knock it out of the park.

Considering your ERA is ~13.00, it was a meatball of a pitch.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2013-06-11 15:57:18

#81

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5972

ERA? Huh?

2013-06-11 16:03:40

#82

Adams_BJ: Russian warship, go fuck yourself; +2,055|7009|Little Bentcock

What has Americans got against democratic socialism anyway?

2013-06-11 16:19:42

#83

yoozeek: Banned; +1|4881

Jay wrote:
Don't people understand what the foundation of Progressivism is? It's rooted in Plato's Republic

"don't people understand the foundation of progressivism" asks the guy who clearly hasnt read plato's republic

nice one m8. feelin wise, feelin fine. big, but not clever.

2013-06-11 16:29:03

#84

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5744|London, England

Adams_BJ wrote:
What has Americans got against democratic socialism anyway?

At the founding of our nation there were two distinct schools of thought as to how it should be governed going forward. One side has come to be known as Hamiltonian, and the other has become known as Jeffersonian. The latter can be equated with modern day libertarianism, with a weak federal government with individual people being empowered to rule their lives instead. The former distrusted 'the mob' and wanted to replace the British monarchy with a strong central government that embraced the Platonian ideal of a cultured ruling elite. In the end, Jefferson became President after John Adams, and Hamilton was felled in a duel with Jeffersons' Vice President, Aaron Burr. The Jeffersonian version of democracy prevailed in America until the time of the Abolitionists and the newly formed Republican Party, who wanted to strengthen the Federal Government in order to abolish slavery. Lincoln, the first Republican president, was everything that a Hamiltonian could ask for. He quashed home rule for states, suspended habeus corpus, and forever strengthened the Federal government at the expense of the states. The Progressive movement in America can be traced back to him, not Marx. Marxism came later.

Since Lincoln, various groups have attempted to use the Federal government to right what they perceived to be wrongs that could only be solved at the national level. The government has continuously been strengthened over time so that its reach can be felt everywhere, at all times. When I speak of Progressives, I don't speak of them as a substitute for "socialist" or "Marxist", I talk of them as they truly are, an extension of early Hamiltonian thought at the expense of the Jeffersonian ideals. Yes, there have been movements built on top of it over the years, from Abolition, to Women's Suffrage, to co-option by Socialists in the time of FDR (and later), but the under-riding current has always been an expansion of federal power at the expense of the people, in order to lead/govern/control them and their baser motives more thoroughly. What is really at the heart of the Progressive movement is the idea that government can be turned into a science, a political science, and that the best way to rule is through study of the people with a massive bureaucracy dedicated to solving all of the nations problems from one central location. That is what Progressivism is in America. Power. Control. It's not all of the little pet crusades that have come and gone over the decades, it's the idea that people are stupid and should acquiesce to having their lives run by their betters in Washington.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2013-06-11 18:46:59

#85

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4581|Oklahoma

Jay wrote:
Adams_BJ wrote:
What has Americans got against democratic socialism anyway?
At the founding of our nation there were two distinct schools of thought as to how it should be governed going forward. One side has come to be known as Hamiltonian, and the other has become known as Jeffersonian. The latter can be equated with modern day libertarianism, with a weak federal government with individual people being empowered to rule their lives instead. The former distrusted 'the mob' and wanted to replace the British monarchy with a strong central government that embraced the Platonian ideal of a cultured ruling elite. In the end, Jefferson became President after John Adams, and Hamilton was felled in a duel with Jeffersons' Vice President, Aaron Burr. The Jeffersonian version of democracy prevailed in America until the time of the Abolitionists and the newly formed Republican Party, who wanted to strengthen the Federal Government in order to abolish slavery. Lincoln, the first Republican president, was everything that a Hamiltonian could ask for. He quashed home rule for states, suspended habeus corpus, and forever strengthened the Federal government at the expense of the states. The Progressive movement in America can be traced back to him, not Marx. Marxism came later.

Since Lincoln, various groups have attempted to use the Federal government to right what they perceived to be wrongs that could only be solved at the national level. The government has continuously been strengthened over time so that its reach can be felt everywhere, at all times. When I speak of Progressives, I don't speak of them as a substitute for "socialist" or "Marxist", I talk of them as they truly are, an extension of early Hamiltonian thought at the expense of the Jeffersonian ideals. Yes, there have been movements built on top of it over the years, from Abolition, to Women's Suffrage, to co-option by Socialists in the time of FDR (and later), but the under-riding current has always been an expansion of federal power at the expense of the people, in order to lead/govern/control them and their baser motives more thoroughly. What is really at the heart of the Progressive movement is the idea that government can be turned into a science, a political science, and that the best way to rule is through study of the people with a massive bureaucracy dedicated to solving all of the nations problems from one central location. That is what Progressivism is in America. Power. Control. It's not all of the little pet crusades that have come and gone over the decades, it's the idea that people are stupid and should acquiesce to having their lives run by their betters in Washington.

You are my new internet hero.

2013-06-11 18:49:55

#86

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4581|Oklahoma

Also, on a lighter note, this was on CNN of all fucking websites.......

HAHAHAHA!! People are so fucking sick of the Obama administration they are actually starting to like Bush more. That's fucking hilarious.

2013-06-11 19:11:31

#87

Adams_BJ: Russian warship, go fuck yourself; +2,055|7009|Little Bentcock

So its not about socialism, it's about change?

2013-06-11 20:09:23

#88

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5972

Adams_BJ wrote:
So its not about socialism, it's about change?

something something Thomas Jefferson

2013-06-11 22:25:31

#89

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7161|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:
Adams_BJ wrote:
What has Americans got against democratic socialism anyway?
At the founding of our nation there were two distinct schools of thought as to how it should be governed going forward.

the founding of your nation happened, what, ~250 yeas ago? do you have the slightest idea how far forward the world have come since then? the "dictinct schools of thought" you are speaking about have been thouroghly researched sinse fucking lincolns and jeffersons and our current understanding of the prosesses of national and societal structures and dinamics, as well as our capabilities - by means provided by information technologies we have access to now - to monitor and influence that, are such, that your so called "fathers" would shit their pants if they were told about that stuff. why the fuck would anybody in this day and age cling to the "distinct schools of thought" prevalent at the times, when people kept slaves and treated rheumatism with moonshine and leeches? are we to fucking move on already?

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2013-06-11 22:26:44

#90

RTHKI: mmmf mmmf mmmf; +1,745|7123|Cinncinatti

russia seems good at not moving on too

2013-06-11 22:32:12

#91

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7161|Moscow, Russia

RTHKI wrote:
russia seems good at not moving on too

soviet union was a very good try. and now, as so called "western civilization" has semmingly hit a dead end, we may just have another chance.

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2013-06-11 22:43:17

#92

Extra Medium: THE UZI SLAYER; +79|4581|Oklahoma

Shahter wrote:
Jay wrote:
Adams_BJ wrote:
What has Americans got against democratic socialism anyway?
At the founding of our nation there were two distinct schools of thought as to how it should be governed going forward.
the founding of your nation happened, what, ~250 yeas ago? do you have the slightest idea how far forward the world have come since then? the "dictinct schools of thought" you are speaking about have been thouroghly researched sinse fucking lincolns and jeffersons and our current understanding of the prosesses of national and societal structures and dinamics, as well as our capabilities - by means provided by information technologies we have access to now - to monitor and influence that, are such, that your so called "fathers" would shit their pants if they were told about that stuff. why the fuck would anybody in this day and age cling to the "distinct schools of thought" prevalent at the times, when people kept slaves and treated rheumatism with moonshine and leeches? are we to fucking move on already?

We still follow some of the same ideas, principles and schools of thought because most of them still work. Free trade, democratic republic system, and three branch check and balance type government have worked phenomenally well when compared to the vast majority of other systems and governments around the world. If you are actually Russian, how many times has your government changed in the last 235 years? Were they all good changes? How about Germany? How about Italy? How about pretty much any country in the middle east, Europe or even Asia.

Shahter wrote:
the founding of your nation happened, what, ~250 yeas ago? do you have the slightest idea how far forward the world have come since then?

I think I read somewhere that the U.S. currently holds the record for the longest lasting current government in the world, meaning it's gone the longest without having it's essential form changed or altered. America currently has one of (not THE) highest standards of living in the first world and we are one of, if not the only, remaining superpower in the world. My question to you would be, why fix it if it ain't broken? Not to say we are perfect, we certainly are not by any means. However, I believe it was Churchill who said

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried."

We cling to those schools of thought because they are the core values, beliefs and ideals that have guided our country from being a colony to a world superpower in 235 years. Our people have not seen war on our soil since 1865 and have never suffered through the massive famine, genocide, occupation and collapse of government like most of the other countries in the world. Our system doesn't work perfectly but it has served it's people, by and large, VERY well over the past two and a half centuries.

2013-06-11 22:53:24

#93

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7161|Moscow, Russia

Extra Medium wrote:
<usa fuk yeah!>

thank you, mister redneck, for reciting to me what you tell your children in school. i'll tell you what: soviet union, having access to only a tiny fraction of the resources available to your "extremely effective nation of the free and the brave", had nearly defeated you in what we call here "a war of the systems" (do you call it like that? i dunno.), and, basically, only collapsed due to mismanagement and failure to identify the way information technologies were developing.
food for thought, if you ever decide to try.

Last edited by Shahter (2013-06-11 22:56:35)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2013-06-12 00:04:43

#94

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7102

Shahter wrote:
Extra Medium wrote:
<usa fuk yeah!>
thank you, mister redneck, for reciting to me what you tell your children in school. i'll tell you what: soviet union, having access to only a tiny fraction of the resources available to your "extremely effective nation of the free and the brave", had nearly defeated you in what we call here "a war of the systems" (do you call it like that? i dunno.), and, basically, only collapsed due to mismanagement and failure to identify the way information technologies were developing.
food for thought, if you ever decide to try.

Soviet union was in pretty much in perpetual economic contraction. how the fuck were they winning in the "war of systems." Soviets did so well that they had to stop people from leaving right?

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2013-06-12 01:34:38

#95

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7161|Moscow, Russia

Cybargs wrote:
Shahter wrote:
Extra Medium wrote:
<usa fuk yeah!>
thank you, mister redneck, for reciting to me what you tell your children in school. i'll tell you what: soviet union, having access to only a tiny fraction of the resources available to your "extremely effective nation of the free and the brave", had nearly defeated you in what we call here "a war of the systems" (do you call it like that? i dunno.), and, basically, only collapsed due to mismanagement and failure to identify the way information technologies were developing.
food for thought, if you ever decide to try.
Soviet union was in pretty much in perpetual economic contraction. how the fuck were they winning in the "war of systems."

soviet union won a major war, achieved levels of technology, education, social care and security all of which were among the best in the world at the time. and if you pull your head out of your ass and also consider the time frame in which it happened and resources it took you'll see that it was nothing short of spectacular.

Soviets did so well that they had to stop people from leaving right?

no.

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2013-06-12 02:18:10

#96

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,820|6492|eXtreme to the maX

Extra Medium wrote:
Also, on a lighter note, this was on CNN of all fucking websites.......

HAHAHAHA!! People are so fucking sick of the Obama administration they are actually starting to like Bush more. That's fucking hilarious.

Thats like someone with crabs wishing they had herpes.

Maybe they've realised he was just a simpleton who was a front for the real evil-doers.

Fuck Israel

2013-06-12 02:18:49

#97

yoozeek: Banned; +1|4881

plato was my favourite progressivist. just so inspiring.

hahaha "platonian ideal" of a "ruling elite". the platonIC "ideal" is to do with metaphysics. nobody uses the phrase "platonian ideal" to talk about politics.

it's really simple, if you'd actually read the republic itself instead of gleaning random factoids from the internet: if there was one political system in 'modernity' that could be equated to the imagined republic of ancient greece, it's Fascism. hitler's germany, not american progressives.

PLEASE GO READ PLATO'S REPUBLIC AND STOP TRYING TO SOUND CLEVER

Last edited by yoozeek (2013-06-12 02:35:06)

2013-06-12 02:49:11

#98

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,820|6492|eXtreme to the maX

If I weren't so fat and lazy I'd dig up the real Uzique's post about the Platonic ideal being that intelligent men should humiliate and insult people they consider stupid or beneath them.

Fuck Israel

2013-06-12 03:09:51

#99

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5744|London, England

Shahter wrote:
Extra Medium wrote:
<usa fuk yeah!>
thank you, mister redneck, for reciting to me what you tell your children in school. i'll tell you what: soviet union, having access to only a tiny fraction of the resources available to your "extremely effective nation of the free and the brave", had nearly defeated you in what we call here "a war of the systems" (do you call it like that? i dunno.), and, basically, only collapsed due to mismanagement and failure to identify the way information technologies were developing.
food for thought, if you ever decide to try.

A tiny fraction of the resources? What on earth? The only resource we had that you didn't was a workforce willing to work without the threat of the gulag hanging over their heads.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2013-06-12 04:04:07

#100

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7161|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:
Shahter wrote:
Extra Medium wrote:
<usa fuk yeah!>
thank you, mister redneck, for reciting to me what you tell your children in school. i'll tell you what: soviet union, having access to only a tiny fraction of the resources available to your "extremely effective nation of the free and the brave", had nearly defeated you in what we call here "a war of the systems" (do you call it like that? i dunno.), and, basically, only collapsed due to mismanagement and failure to identify the way information technologies were developing.
food for thought, if you ever decide to try.
A tiny fraction of the resources? What on earth?

the financial pyramid called "global economy" with you on top.

Last edited by Shahter (2013-06-12 04:04:36)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

BF2S Forums America is Real-Life 1984.

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Adams_BJ wrote:

Jay wrote:

Adams_BJ wrote:

Adams_BJ wrote:

Jay wrote:

Adams_BJ wrote:

RTHKI wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Jay wrote:

Adams_BJ wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Extra Medium wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Extra Medium wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Extra Medium wrote:

Extra Medium wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Extra Medium wrote:

Jay wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Extra Medium wrote:

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