Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX
So basically the cutting edge of academic theory is  people on LSD think they're cleverer?
Whats next for the IC dept of Recreational Drugs?

"Does cannabis use turn people into intellectual and amusing conversationalists or giggling morons with hunger pangs and distorted self-perception?"
Fuck Israel
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

what i am debating is your view of alcohol as benign and harmless,
Have I said alcohol use is benign and harmless?
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+546|3988
what are you actually talking about? nobody has claimed LSD makes you more intelligent.

also from imperial ... ?

In the last decade a number of research groups in Europe and the Americas have conducted studies into the safety and effectiveness of psychedelics for conditions such as depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), but the new Imperial centre is the first to gain this level of stature within a major academic institution.

Imperial’s Psychedelic Research Group was the first in the world to investigate the brain effects of LSD using modern brain imaging and the first to study psilocybin – the active compound in magic mushrooms – for treating severe depression. These studies have laid the groundwork for larger trials that are now taking place around the world.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/190994/ … chedelics/

https://hopkinspsychedelic.org

For over 15 years the Johns Hopkins Psychedelic Research Unit has been the preeminent and most productive research team in the United States conducting human research with psychedelics. They have shown breathtaking scientific productivity, having published more than 50 peer-reviewed manuscripts on psychedelics, including 15 published laboratory studies.
hopkins has established LSD/psilocybin as effective in treating depression and in cessation from addictive substances, such as alcohol, cocaine and tobacco.

in the journal of psychopharmacology:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 … 1116675512

Prior to the crossover, psilocybin produced immediate, substantial, and sustained improvements in anxiety and depression and led to decreases in cancer-related demoralization and hopelessness, improved spiritual wellbeing, and increased quality of life. At the 6.5-month follow-up, psilocybin was associated with enduring anxiolytic and anti-depressant effects (approximately 60–80% of participants continued with clinically significant reductions in depression or anxiety), sustained benefits in existential distress and quality of life, as well as improved attitudes towards death. The psilocybin-induced mystical experience mediated the therapeutic effect of psilocybin on anxiety and depression.

[...]

In conjunction with psychotherapy, single moderate-dose psilocybin produced rapid, robust and enduring anxiolytic and anti-depressant effects in patients with cancer-related psychological distress.
no one has claimed anything so facile as 'LSD makes you cleverer'. i mentioned there's a culture of microdosing in silicon valley to show that it's fairly mainstream and evidently not disastrous to one's health and sanity, not that tech-wonks in silicon valley are making scientific breakthroughs. it's a fad there like any number of other silly fads.
uziq
Member
+546|3988

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

what i am debating is your view of alcohol as benign and harmless,
Have I said alcohol use is benign and harmless?
you have literally been saying for the last several pages that alcohol use is GOOD for you in the quantities you imbibe! and prattling on and on about cocaine psychosis and alzheimer's, as if heavy alcohol use doesn't rot your liver and brain.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

what are you actually talking about? nobody has claimed LSD makes you more intelligent.


no one has claimed anything so facile as 'LSD makes you cleverer'. i mentioned there's a culture of microdosing in silicon valley to show that it's fairly mainstream and evidently not disastrous to one's health and sanity, not that tech-wonks in silicon valley are making scientific breakthroughs. it's a fad there like any number of other silly fads.
So what is the supposed point of amateur microdosing?

Drugs used clincally can be useful for treating medical problems - who knew?
Still not an argument for allowing recreational use.

I pointed to one study of 200,000 people which suggested low-level alcohol consumption at least may not be harmful and can be included in a normal healthy lifestyle.
You've pointed to a study which suggests extreme substance abuse is a problem for people who engage in it and that in deaths between the ages of 15-49 people who die tend to die as a result of extreme and unhealthy behaviour.

Perhaps if you'd done a rigourous STEM degree and not spent your time using your own body to experiment with chemicals you'd be able to put together a cogent argument.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+546|3988
maybe if you'd done an enlightening and mind-opening arts degree you would have had a social life and left your little box, and realised that not everyone who takes a toke on a joint or does a few lines becomes a degenerate addict with schizophrenia. please don't appeal to your STEM background as if you're the cool voice of reason on the topic. you are an hysteric.

Drugs used clincally can be useful for treating medical problems - who knew?
Still not an argument for allowing recreational use.
well, alcohol will never be used clinically for any application, because it is wholly toxic and bad for you -- what does that say about non-toxic, non-addictive drugs like LSD and mushrooms?

what is your argument for the recreational use of alcohol? if, by most medical accounts, it is harmful and best avoided. is it really worse to take mushrooms in a recreational setting than alcohol? which one causes cancer and addiction, again? which one poses a bigger danger to your life in terms of abuse potential: the addictive and compulsive drug or the non-addictive, non-compulsive one?

it's funny how blithe you are about the large numbers of avoidable deaths and serious health consequences because of alcohol, but will harp on and on about anecdotes of people going crazy after taking LSD.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-02 04:15:02)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

what is your argument for the recreational use of alcohol?
Whats the argument for recreational use of any drug? People enjoy it?
if, by most medical accounts, it is harmful and best avoided.
According to most medical accounts moderate use of alcohol is practically harmless. Your link covering the extreme end of drug use is not relevant.
is it really worse to take mushrooms in a recreational setting than alcohol? which one causes cancer and addiction, again? which one poses a bigger danger to your life in terms of abuse potential: the addictive and compulsive drug or the non-addictive, non-compulsive one?
People with substance abuse issues are going to find a substance to abuse, and people seem to put a lot of time, effort, money and risk into getting hold of illegal drugs which are non-addictive and non-compulsive. Strange no?
it's funny how blithe you are about the large numbers of avoidable deaths and serious health consequences because of alcohol, but will harp on and on about anecdotes of people going crazy after taking LSD.
Over-doing anything is unhealthy, I've known enough people who have fried their heads with LSD and/or cannabis, to name two 'harmless' drugs, and ended up wasters or dead to know that you're wrong.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+546|3988
no one ever wastes their life or ends up dead because of alcohol though. keep sucking back on that bottle, baby! a toxic, addictive substance can’t possibly be more harmful than a non-toxic, non-addictive one. i have a scienc de g reee e.  ,/&
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX
Its amazing how many people waste their life or end up dead thanks to non-toxic, non-addictive substances though isn't it?
No science degree required, just a primary school level understanding of numbers.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+546|3988
how many people die because of mushrooms or LSD?
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|7245|England. Stoke
For me I can buy a night or two worth's of drink or buy weed which will last me a week or so. Or I can find some mushrooms where I know they grow for free, all that time and effort...
But I've known people who will literally do all sorts of shit for another drink, and they become "wasters" and then they end up dead too...

This "conversation" has become bollocks anyway because Dilbert is resorting to "reductio ad absurdum" about something he clearly has no proper experience off whatsoever.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+672|4256
Bam Margera needs help and he's asking Dr. Phil for his expertise.

The former "Jackass" star took to social media to post a series of emotional videos in which he specifically asked for the TV host. Margera said Dr. Phil is the "only person" he'll trust.

"Dr. Phil, I've seen 28 doctors, I've been to four rehabs," Margera said in one Instagram video that has since expired. "When I went to my last rehab, they put me on more medication than I was on when I was out. When I'm out, I have Adderall and then some weird s***, I'll tell ya all about it. I don't know what works and what doesn't.


"The only person I believe is you. Cause when I watch you, I'm like, 'That's what I would've said, that's what I would've said.' The only person that I will believe on the planet is Dr. Phil," he said.
Dr. Phil did reach out, according to a report by E!, and the two sat for a meeting that was filmed for an upcoming episode of his talk show.
This all sounds like FAKE NEWS and an advertisement for a Dr. Phil special.

But if it isn't...why doesn't he commit suicide? I never understood why people who are in and out of rehab for decades don't just kill themselves. You would think that after 28 attempts at sobriety, you would get the message that you are beyond saving.

I'm not advocating or hoping he commits suicide or anything though. Just food for thought.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+546|3988
one of the top headlines today:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 … apse-study

Doctors in Bristol are testing whether a few doses of the drug, in conjunction with psychotherapy, could help patients overcome alcoholism more effectively than conventional treatments. Those who have completed the study have so far reported almost no relapse and no physical or psychological problems.

In comparison, eight in 10 alcoholics in England relapse within three years after current treatment approaches. Dr Ben Sessa, an addiction psychiatrist and senior research fellow at Imperial College London, and who led the trial, said: “With the very best that medical science can work with, 80% of people are drinking within three years post alcohol detox.”
using MDMA to cure the life-ruining effects of alcohol abuse. this must make dilbert's head explode.
uziq
Member
+546|3988

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Bam Margera needs help and he's asking Dr. Phil for his expertise.

The former "Jackass" star took to social media to post a series of emotional videos in which he specifically asked for the TV host. Margera said Dr. Phil is the "only person" he'll trust.

"Dr. Phil, I've seen 28 doctors, I've been to four rehabs," Margera said in one Instagram video that has since expired. "When I went to my last rehab, they put me on more medication than I was on when I was out. When I'm out, I have Adderall and then some weird s***, I'll tell ya all about it. I don't know what works and what doesn't.


"The only person I believe is you. Cause when I watch you, I'm like, 'That's what I would've said, that's what I would've said.' The only person that I will believe on the planet is Dr. Phil," he said.
Dr. Phil did reach out, according to a report by E!, and the two sat for a meeting that was filmed for an upcoming episode of his talk show.
This all sounds like FAKE NEWS and an advertisement for a Dr. Phil special.

But if it isn't...why doesn't he commit suicide? I never understood why people who are in and out of rehab for decades don't just kill themselves. You would think that after 28 attempts at sobriety, you would get the message that you are beyond saving.

I'm not advocating or hoping he commits suicide or anything though. Just food for thought.
not really food for thought, is it? he needs to change his social circle. i'm sure bam has a bunch of wasters and hangers-on in his entourage, keeping him immured in some non-stop party lifestyle. hardly 'beyond saving', but he does need proper help, quite clearly. doesn't help that his best friend got killed in a car accident and he's probably never done the proper work of getting through it.

but yeah, other than your insensitive comments, this is clearly some PR stunt.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX
Yes, a small number of people have addiction issues and will latch onto whichever substance feeds their addiction best.

Maybe alcohol could be used to cure MDMA addiction?
Fuck Israel
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213787-extinction-rebellion-founder-calls-for-mass-psychedelic-disobedience/

lmao
Taking drugs makes people less inclined to follow the law - doesn't seem great to me.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+546|3988

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes, a small number of people have addiction issues and will latch onto whichever substance feeds their addiction best.

Maybe alcohol could be used to cure MDMA addiction?
mdma isn’t addictive.

psychedelic therapies are touted as a one-time (or a few sessions) cure for long term benefits. pretty much unseen as a treatment paradigm for addiction or trauma issues.

none of the drugs being trialled are addictive or toxic. compare the LD50 ratios of alcohol to mdma or psilocybin.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-19 16:25:57)

uziq
Member
+546|3988

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213787-extinction-rebellion-founder-calls-for-mass-psychedelic-disobedience/

lmao
Taking drugs makes people less inclined to follow the law - doesn't seem great to me.
you’re right. drink drivers, street brawlers and wife beaters are a real problem.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes, a small number of people have addiction issues and will latch onto whichever substance feeds their addiction best.

Maybe alcohol could be used to cure MDMA addiction?
mdma isn’t addictive.

psychedelic therapies are touted as a one-time (or a few sessions) cure for long term benefits. pretty much unseen as a treatment paradigm for addiction or trauma issues.

none of the drugs being trialled are addictive or toxic. compare the LD50 ratios of alcohol to mdma or psilocybin.
And the proportion of people who end up psychotic or serotonin depleted?
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+546|3988
read the article.  do a research.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX
Doctors in Bristol are testing whether a few doses of the drug, in conjunction with psychotherapy, could help patients overcome alcoholism more effectively than conventional treatments. Those who have completed the study have so far reported almost no relapse and no physical or psychological problems.

In comparison, eight in 10 alcoholics in England relapse within three years after current treatment approaches. Dr Ben Sessa, an addiction psychiatrist and senior research fellow at Imperial College London, and who led the trial, said: “With the very best that medical science can work with, 80% of people are drinking within three years post alcohol detox.”

Eleven people have so far completed the safety and tolerability study, which involves nine months of follow-ups. “We’ve got one person who has completely relapsed, back to previous drinking levels, we have five people who are completely dry and we have four or five who have had one or two drinks but wouldn’t reach the diagnosis of alcohol use disorder,” Sessa said.
Seems like a shit study TBH, comparing relapse rates after nine months compared with three years.
80% are drinking after three years without MDMA.
With MDMA after nine months the figure is 5-6/11 (either someone is drinking or not, the last one is Schrodingers cat?) = 45-55% back to drinking

Can't really draw any conclusions at all from this, seems the author is pushing an agenda which is simply not backed by his own evidence based on an inadequate sample and bending words to mean what he wants.

Shit work D- try again Mr Nutt, and maybe don't sample the test meds while working.

Here's some other research. While 96.6% of festival-goers use alcohol compared with 79.5% for MDMA, MDMA is responsible for 100% of the deaths.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n … quest-told

The deputy state coroner, Harriet Grahame, is examining the deaths of Nathan Tran, 18, Diana Nguyen, 21, Joseph Pham, 23, Callum Brosnan, 19, Joshua Tam, 22, and Ross-King, 19, who all died from MDMA toxicity or complications of MDMA use at music festivals between December 2017 and January 2019.

Barratt said regulation of the supply of the drug “could prevent some of the harms” associated with the drug, and pointed to research in the US looking to use MDMA to treat post-traumatic stress disorder.

“It doesn’t solve the problem [because] there are idiosyncratic reactions to a normal dose of MDMA that we see in the literature so ... it’s not possible to say MDMA is safe, it’s not that simple,” she said.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-08-20 05:08:05)

Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
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79.5% of festival goers use MDMA? what???
people have ‘idiosyncratic’ reactions to alcohol too. and ibuprofen. what’s her point? all clinically approved drugs have this risk.

mdma deaths at festivals are normally due to overdosing, lack of hydration and drinking in combination with alcohol (which leads to dehydration). i don’t think anyone is condoning taking huge doses of MDMA at hot and crowded festivals. about as wise as downing a bottle of vodka and needing your stomach pumped tbh.

how many people end up in hospital wards because of binge drinking? people die from alcohol overdoses all the time. cherrypicking examples from festivals, where alcohol is exorbitantly priced and not really the lure (who wants to be paralytic when at a music festival?), is hardly ‘good research’.

so the medical study done by scientists is bad, but your news story about a relatively small number of deaths at music festivals is solid. lol ok. meanwhile two pages ago you didn’t bat an eyelid at the 10,000s of alcohol-related deaths per year.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/alcohol-ran … ays-report
alcohol ranked most dangerous drug in australia
???
i guess aussies never binge drink and end up in the ER requiring emergency treatment for severe poisoning. many people die this way.

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 03:16:56)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,836|6642|eXtreme to the maX
People dying from alcohol at music festivals is pretty uncommon.
People collapsing and dying at the pub is pretty uncommon.

The point is MDMA is not the totally safe drug you make it out to be, forget huge doses, not even in clinically controlled doses - according to the experts.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-08-20 04:32:00)

Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+546|3988
people dying from mdma at festivals is also very uncommon. you can read stats right?

i don’t think it would be given approval for testing if it was lethal in clinical doses, dilbert. once someone overdoses on MDMA it is incredibly difficult to revive them. it’s not like pumping a stomach.

yes, the majority of alcohol abuse doesn’t occur at festivals or down your local pub. what’s your point? the majority of cocaine deaths don’t happen at nightclubs. what are you getting at here?!? so because alcoholics or binge drinkers aren’t dying stood at a bar, it’s a safe chemical? lmao

Last edited by uziq (2019-08-20 04:37:19)

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