Interesting how much you despise one another, has it gotten worse over the years?
No, it used to be worse
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Do you realize the stupidity of comparing a federal expansion of healthcare to a pandemic?Jay wrote:
It's not bullshit, it's how the game is normally played. When Obamacare was enacted do you remember the pushback from the states on Medicaid expansion? It was all about who was being asked to pay for it. When every natural disaster happens, governors invoke state of emergency because it opens up FEMA money. The State of New York had the opportunity to buy 16,000 ventilators a few years ago but said that they didn't want to spend the money and instead would depend on the Federal government when an emergency came up. Now there are 49 other states that are trying to pull from the same bucket at the same time. We have a lack of governance in this country. Our politicians promise the world and then fail at the day to day task of actually governing and planning. They want the power without any of the responsibility.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
that is such bullshit. It's not about costs, it's about having a plan of action. Having 50 states PLUS the federal government bidding against each other is not efficient.Jay wrote:
You understand that this is because states tried to pass the buck and not buy up their own supplies, right? It's part of the game they constantly play. They always try to push all spending onto the federal government. This is the feds pushing back and saying fuck you you should've been buying your own stuff.
It's actually very simple - consolidate demand. negotiate on pricing. distribute to the most affected, urgent areas as a priority. Why have 50 moving pieces plus 1? Your pet "chaos = freedom" theory does not apply here. It might apply in a place like Somalia, though.
The federal government is failing at this task. It seems like the white house is purposely not allowing federal agencies to enact any sort of coordinated response. The white house has repeatedly worked against common knowledge of this. Failed to listen to experts. Failed to take it seriously. Failed to issue a timely, directed response.
Didn't we declare a national emergency? Isn't Trump invoking war powers acts to mobilize the federal government? But it's not the role of the federal government? Why aren't you calling the Feds out for overstepping their role?
You've taken civics, right?
Our state finances in blue states are all in rough shape. Our pension outlays and unfunded liabilities are absolutely crushing our ability to plan for rainy days like today.
There is no doubt that at every level of government we are woefully inadequately prepared. Long term planning is not exactly a hallmark of market capitalism.
The point is to have a consolidated, top-down led effort. It is the most efficient way to tackle an issue of this size. A pandemic is exactly the type of issue that the federal government should be taking the lead on - we have institutions built up for this very purpose. There is NO excuse for a lack of action and direction.
Please don't be a fucking idiot and start talking about blue and red states.
When you have a top-down effort you end up with blanket one-size-fits-all policies without the capability of nuance. Every state is currently dealing with different levels of infection and different levels of possible infection. New York City should not be treated the same way as West Virginia. Population density is wildly different, and so are resources. This is definitely something that should be handled at the state level, if not lower.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Do you realize the stupidity of comparing a federal expansion of healthcare to a pandemic?Jay wrote:
It's not bullshit, it's how the game is normally played. When Obamacare was enacted do you remember the pushback from the states on Medicaid expansion? It was all about who was being asked to pay for it. When every natural disaster happens, governors invoke state of emergency because it opens up FEMA money. The State of New York had the opportunity to buy 16,000 ventilators a few years ago but said that they didn't want to spend the money and instead would depend on the Federal government when an emergency came up. Now there are 49 other states that are trying to pull from the same bucket at the same time. We have a lack of governance in this country. Our politicians promise the world and then fail at the day to day task of actually governing and planning. They want the power without any of the responsibility.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
that is such bullshit. It's not about costs, it's about having a plan of action. Having 50 states PLUS the federal government bidding against each other is not efficient.
It's actually very simple - consolidate demand. negotiate on pricing. distribute to the most affected, urgent areas as a priority. Why have 50 moving pieces plus 1? Your pet "chaos = freedom" theory does not apply here. It might apply in a place like Somalia, though.
The federal government is failing at this task. It seems like the white house is purposely not allowing federal agencies to enact any sort of coordinated response. The white house has repeatedly worked against common knowledge of this. Failed to listen to experts. Failed to take it seriously. Failed to issue a timely, directed response.
Didn't we declare a national emergency? Isn't Trump invoking war powers acts to mobilize the federal government? But it's not the role of the federal government? Why aren't you calling the Feds out for overstepping their role?
You've taken civics, right?
Our state finances in blue states are all in rough shape. Our pension outlays and unfunded liabilities are absolutely crushing our ability to plan for rainy days like today.
There is no doubt that at every level of government we are woefully inadequately prepared. Long term planning is not exactly a hallmark of market capitalism.
The point is to have a consolidated, top-down led effort. It is the most efficient way to tackle an issue of this size. A pandemic is exactly the type of issue that the federal government should be taking the lead on - we have institutions built up for this very purpose. There is NO excuse for a lack of action and direction.
Please don't be a fucking idiot and start talking about blue and red states.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Top-down effort does not automatically mean implementing one solution. Jesus fucking christ man.
That's the whole idea of having a consolidated effort where a team directs resources to the most afflicted areas of concern. Duplicate, concurrent efforts are stupid and put a strain on the already very weak supply chain. It's almost as if we create special task forces and develop leadership teams for this exact type of scenario.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but have you ever taken a program management course? I feel like being exposed to how big businesses try to maxmize efficiency would be very beneficial to you.
That's the whole idea of having a consolidated effort where a team directs resources to the most afflicted areas of concern. Duplicate, concurrent efforts are stupid and put a strain on the already very weak supply chain. It's almost as if we create special task forces and develop leadership teams for this exact type of scenario.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but have you ever taken a program management course? I feel like being exposed to how big businesses try to maxmize efficiency would be very beneficial to you.
i have no real ill will towards jay. he is very stupid, but that isn't his fault.Larssen wrote:
Interesting how much you despise one another, has it gotten worse over the years?
i am without question much healthier than you, jay. i am much younger, i eat well, i run regularly. you are a fat ass buying military quantities of canvas and khaki from supply stores to clothe your corpulent frame.Jay wrote:
You're probably going to die when you catch it. You should stay in your apartment forever.
Last edited by uziq (2020-04-03 10:39:49)
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +659|4140
The federal government has in practice an unlimited budget to spend on supplies. It makes zero sense as to why the federal government doesn't just put up the money to make new supplies and buy existing ones to give away. Especially so since all of the money could be spent to reward political supporters and buy loyalty.
I refuse to believe that the people in the White House haven't thought of that. The only answer that makes sense is that they want people to die for whatever reason.
I refuse to believe that the people in the White House haven't thought of that. The only answer that makes sense is that they want people to die for whatever reason.
Yes, I have, and I recognize that large organizations will always tend to do what is expedient for them, and yes, that means one-size-fits-all solutions. When you start trying to add nuance you get whataboutisms and people getting upset that they're being treated differently etc. Nuance means more headaches. Bureaucrats do everything to make their job as easy as possible.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Top-down effort does not automatically mean implementing one solution. Jesus fucking christ man.
That's the whole idea of having a consolidated effort where a team directs resources to the most afflicted areas of concern. Duplicate, concurrent efforts are stupid and put a strain on the already very weak supply chain. It's almost as if we create special task forces and develop leadership teams for this exact type of scenario.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but have you ever taken a program management course? I feel like being exposed to how big businesses try to maxmize efficiency would be very beneficial to you.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
it's hard for me to chalk it up to anything except ignorance, stupidity and unwillingness.SuperJail Warden wrote:
The federal government has in practice an unlimited budget to spend on supplies. It makes zero sense as to why the federal government doesn't just put up the money to make new supplies and buy existing ones to give away. Especially so since all of the money could be spent to reward political supporters and buy loyalty.
I refuse to believe that the people in the White House haven't thought of that. The only answer that makes sense is that they want people to die for whatever reason.
It's more likely that Trump is stopping all lot of real effort because he is a terrible human being than for me to entertain the thought that there is a concerted effort by political elite to drive down the economy, kill off the undesirables and then buy when prices are low.
trump's political success hinges on being able to say that under him the economy has won bigly. a plummeting stock market is an axe to his hopes for re-election. he's too stupid, short-termist, and impulsive to realise that he is sowing his own demise by bungling this massive national emergency. he's like a dumb dog that is presented with two options and can't pick between them, so ends up chasing its own tail in a frenzy. panic cannot be far from beetling his brow.
The money has to be paid back eventually. Whose balance sheet should it go on? The states and the federal government are playing hot potato. Right now, the red states have the power in the Senate and they don't want to be saddled with debt for what they perceive as blue state problems. The blue states panicked, shut down their economies, and will have massive budget shortfalls. They are looking for bailouts. Rural states naturally have less risk in a pandemic because they have less density and don't want to pay for us.SuperJail Warden wrote:
The federal government has in practice an unlimited budget to spend on supplies. It makes zero sense as to why the federal government doesn't just put up the money to make new supplies and buy existing ones to give away. Especially so since all of the money could be spent to reward political supporters and buy loyalty.
I refuse to believe that the people in the White House haven't thought of that. The only answer that makes sense is that they want people to die for whatever reason.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
The federal government is currently doing what is expedient for them - punting to the states. YOU are supporting that position. A unified leadership team is the most efficient way to accomplish a massive goal with many moving parts..Jay wrote:
Yes, I have, and I recognize that large organizations will always tend to do what is expedient for them, and yes, that means one-size-fits-all solutions. When you start trying to add nuance you get whataboutisms and people getting upset that they're being treated differently etc. Nuance means more headaches. Bureaucrats do everything to make their job as easy as possible.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Top-down effort does not automatically mean implementing one solution. Jesus fucking christ man.
That's the whole idea of having a consolidated effort where a team directs resources to the most afflicted areas of concern. Duplicate, concurrent efforts are stupid and put a strain on the already very weak supply chain. It's almost as if we create special task forces and develop leadership teams for this exact type of scenario.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but have you ever taken a program management course? I feel like being exposed to how big businesses try to maxmize efficiency would be very beneficial to you.
I doubt the white house has developed a strategy, because i doubt the white house has defined a goal.
one thing that is abundantly clear already is that the trump administration, and everyone responsible in the chain, is going to go down pointing fingers and blaming everyone but themselves. this is already a partisan issue of red vs blue, and, by god, the blue guys have done it!
a similar situation is obtaining in brazil with bolsonaro. his early arrogance and stridency is going to give way to bigtime political conflict. he'll never admit to being disastrously in the wrong -- at the expense of his own people.
and commentators talk about china's 'saving face' as if it only applies to their culture.
also: lol i missed jay saying he was 'cleared by CDC guidelines', whereas the WHO have 'lost all credibility'. right, the CDC, that organisation who ignored WHO advice and manufactured their own defective test kits?
a similar situation is obtaining in brazil with bolsonaro. his early arrogance and stridency is going to give way to bigtime political conflict. he'll never admit to being disastrously in the wrong -- at the expense of his own people.
and commentators talk about china's 'saving face' as if it only applies to their culture.
also: lol i missed jay saying he was 'cleared by CDC guidelines', whereas the WHO have 'lost all credibility'. right, the CDC, that organisation who ignored WHO advice and manufactured their own defective test kits?
Last edited by uziq (2020-04-03 10:56:12)
I'm more interested in if the people, methods and machinations that gave rise to Trump, Bolsonaro and similar 'leaders' will feel consequences from this crisis.
My rather pessimistic guess is that they will not. Fox news is still cheerleading him and the far right publications in general have so far asked very few critical questions, if any.
My rather pessimistic guess is that they will not. Fox news is still cheerleading him and the far right publications in general have so far asked very few critical questions, if any.
the media has not held trump to task at all, and it's not just fox and the "far right" publications. The media here in the states are more concerned with "gotcha" quotes and winning daily page view battles than acting like the 4th estate.
It's hard not to look at the various crumblings of civic institutions and public spheres as a downturn in the political stock market with no turnaround in the near term. It's hard not to view economic stagnation, stratification and consolidation of wealth as a key contributor to that downturn. The adoption of authoritarianism around the world is both a contributing factor and a byproduct.
Foot on the gas pedal, we accelerating into that wall, baby!
It's hard not to look at the various crumblings of civic institutions and public spheres as a downturn in the political stock market with no turnaround in the near term. It's hard not to view economic stagnation, stratification and consolidation of wealth as a key contributor to that downturn. The adoption of authoritarianism around the world is both a contributing factor and a byproduct.
Foot on the gas pedal, we accelerating into that wall, baby!
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +659|4140
The higher the death toll the more vindicated the right will feel. They will blame the sick and dead for getting sick. Universal healthcare will lose support in the U.S. since many Americans would prefer a system where their money got them ventilators instead of having to wait because a sick or poor person needs it more.
Chances are we will only hit that wall a decade down the line. Crises and their consequences tend to fester before a real moment of reflection and radical change emerges.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Foot on the gas pedal, we accelerating into that wall, baby!
Not necessarily positive reflection or change either. This may just help to increase xenophobia & nativism the world over. It's happened before after other pandemics. In Europe at least the radical right will feel vindicated, because they were the first to (of course) tout the idea that all borders should be hermetically sealed and foreigners expelled.
Last edited by Larssen (2020-04-03 11:40:07)
They haven't announced it yet, but the State of California is going to issue a more strict lockdown from 4/6 - 4/20.
If your state finances had been in better shape they'd have taken out loans to give people tax cuts, not plan for the future and build up reserves.Jay wrote:
Our state finances in blue states are all in rough shape. Our pension outlays and unfunded liabilities are absolutely crushing our ability to plan for rainy days like today.
Still not understanding why you don't move to Utah seeing as you hate living in a Blue state and paying other people's pensions so much.
So take it to its logical conclusion, take govt out of it, you and your neighbour can bid against each other for masks and vaccines on ebay and alibaba.When you have a top-down effort you end up with blanket one-size-fits-all policies without the capability of nuance. Every state is currently dealing with different levels of infection and different levels of possible infection. New York City should not be treated the same way as West Virginia. Population density is wildly different, and so are resources. This is definitely something that should be handled at the state level, if not lower.
In developed countries you have to have a clear test before you're allowed out.My client did that to me a few weeks ago when I asked him how he was feeling. I wanted to punch him in the fucking face.
I imagine there'd be a few people, probably a lot bigger than you, who'd punch you in the face if they knew you were walking around while fully contagious.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-04-03 14:56:26)
Fuck Israel
trump is an unmitigated disaster. someone needs to get this fool out of the public. far from being a leader, he is doing culpable harm.
once again reiterating that the anti-malarial drug 'is looking like good results'. it has had next to zero testing. the only study that implies a positive result for treatment of coronavirus is a french study with a sample size of ... 40 patients. meanwhile, several americans have died after consuming something they took to be hydroxychloroquine which they found in their cupboards as tropical fish food (yes, really). meanwhile, stocks of the drug are beginning to run out for people who, you know, actually need anti-malarial treatment.
he's so desperate for a good headline and some spin to keep his base happy that he is promoting BAD PUBLIC HEALTH ADVICE. a president who is literally harming his own citizens. what a fucking clown!
once again reiterating that the anti-malarial drug 'is looking like good results'. it has had next to zero testing. the only study that implies a positive result for treatment of coronavirus is a french study with a sample size of ... 40 patients. meanwhile, several americans have died after consuming something they took to be hydroxychloroquine which they found in their cupboards as tropical fish food (yes, really). meanwhile, stocks of the drug are beginning to run out for people who, you know, actually need anti-malarial treatment.
he's so desperate for a good headline and some spin to keep his base happy that he is promoting BAD PUBLIC HEALTH ADVICE. a president who is literally harming his own citizens. what a fucking clown!
Several being one.uziq wrote:
trump is an unmitigated disaster. someone needs to get this fool out of the public. far from being a leader, he is doing culpable harm.
once again reiterating that the anti-malarial drug 'is looking like good results'. it has had next to zero testing. the only study that implies a positive result for treatment of coronavirus is a french study with a sample size of ... 40 patients. meanwhile, several americans have died after consuming something they took to be hydroxychloroquine which they found in their cupboards as tropical fish food (yes, really). meanwhile, stocks of the drug are beginning to run out for people who, you know, actually need anti-malarial treatment.
he's so desperate for a good headline and some spin to keep his base happy that he is promoting BAD PUBLIC HEALTH ADVICE. a president who is literally harming his own citizens. what a fucking clown!
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
last i checked the other person was still critically ill in hospital. the point being that spreading bad public health advice is not a light and trivial matter. you are dealing with people's lives.
no qualified medical professional would give advice to take something that was untested and unproven. you know why? because it's fucking irresponsible and immoral. it breaches every single one of their code of ethics.
you seem excessively proud of the fact that your air conditioning field has its own certificates. what would you say if someone with no knowledge of HVAC gave advice?
why is an unqualified president who couldn't tell a vaccine from a vacuum giving advice on television to the american people?
no qualified medical professional would give advice to take something that was untested and unproven. you know why? because it's fucking irresponsible and immoral. it breaches every single one of their code of ethics.
you seem excessively proud of the fact that your air conditioning field has its own certificates. what would you say if someone with no knowledge of HVAC gave advice?
why is an unqualified president who couldn't tell a vaccine from a vacuum giving advice on television to the american people?
Last edited by uziq (2020-04-03 15:24:21)
Why do you care? You don't live here.uziq wrote:
last i checked the other person was still critically ill in hospital. the point being that spreading bad public health advice is not a light and trivial matter. you are dealing with people's lives.
no qualified medical professional would give advice to take something that was untested and unproven. you know why? because it's fucking irresponsible and immoral. it breaches every single one of their code of ethics.
you seem excessively proud of the fact that your air conditioning field has its own certificates. what would you say if someone with no knowledge of HVAC gave advice?
why is an unqualified president who couldn't tell a vaccine from a vacuum giving advice on television to the american people?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
1/3rd of the cases in Australia have been caused by people visiting America, and Americans visiting here.
Fuck off with your filthy New York virus.
Fuck off with your filthy New York virus.
Fuck Israel
Stick to hating on China
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat