BF2S Forums Investment

uziq wrote:

except all the times like it doesn't, like in any number of real-world case studies?

You mean the ones where they select a sample population, hand them cash, and then ask them if they like being handed cash?

If they did it on a universal basis, all it would do is reset the floor from $0 to whatever amount they handed out, let's say $1000/month. People will go out and spend their newfound $1000 and prices will respond. Rent will go up, food prices will go up etc. until the floor is reset. Then you end up in a cycle where you constantly have to keep raising it in perpetuity. It's a feel good theory, but it doesn't work in practice.

uziq wrote:

UBI does not have to involve injecting massive amounts of new cash into the economy. some inflation? possibly, ceteris paribus. runaway inflation? no.

I didn't say the inflation would be runaway, the inflation would be just enough to make having $1000 in your pocket every month the new $0.

DesertFox- wrote:

>something that's basically never been tried
>doesn't work in practice
Assuredly these landlords/shopkeepers/what have you setting these prices are also getting the UBI, which takes care of some of their expenses so there would be no logical reason for prices to rise unless someone's being a greedy fuck

The Stockholm Syndrome of many Americans is astounding. Obviously at this point in history, you're lucky enough to have landed in the optimal situation for a citizen. Any changes at all would certainly be a detriment. What's funny is the "this is the great country on earth" worldview has essentially remained static for decades, as the situation has deteriorated and made the viewpoint laughable as one can readily point out the contradictions.

City on a hill, my guy. American exceptionalism at work.

So another often forgotten thing about UBI is that it isn't necessarily fixed by the concept of a 'livable wage'. Most policy analyses I've seen on it actually suggest you want it to be slightly below that point to not encourage masses of people to exit the labour market. Another interesting thing that appears to happen is that those who do rely on it tend to arrive at a near 'ideal' basket of goods that they all optimize together. Like the sale of cheap Wonder Bread goes through the roof. This is taken from a test of UBI they did in Canada a couple of years ago.

Wonder Bread is too sweet. I prefer other breads.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Wonder Bread is too sweet. I prefer other breads.

I like potato bread, personally. Dutch Country. Yum

DesertFox- wrote:

>something that's basically never been tried
>doesn't work in practice
Assuredly these landlords/shopkeepers/what have you setting these prices are also getting the UBI, which takes care of some of their expenses so there would be no logical reason for prices to rise unless someone's being a greedy fuck

The Stockholm Syndrome of many Americans is astounding. Obviously at this point in history, you're lucky enough to have landed in the optimal situation for a citizen. Any changes at all would certainly be a detriment. What's funny is the "this is the great country on earth" worldview has essentially remained static for decades, as the situation has deteriorated and made the viewpoint laughable as one can readily point out the contradictions.

Why is he a greedy fuck if he chooses to spend his $1000 on something he wants just like the people renting from him are doing? Why is he a greedy fuck for providing a service and charging money for it? Go buy a house if you don't want to rent.

Jay wrote:

Pochsy wrote:

So another often forgotten thing about UBI is that it isn't necessarily fixed by the concept of a 'livable wage'. Most policy analyses I've seen on it actually suggest you want it to be slightly below that point to not encourage masses of people to exit the labour market. Another interesting thing that appears to happen is that those who do rely on it tend to arrive at a near 'ideal' basket of goods that they all optimize together. Like the sale of cheap Wonder Bread goes through the roof. This is taken from a test of UBI they did in Canada a couple of years ago.

Wonder Bread doesn't stay cheap if you expand the market for it with a universalized UBI. Supply and demand.

There are products which drive profitability for a company through volume. They tend to be low-end products where lower-income people are looking for cheap goods. Being on UBI would certainly put one at the very bottom of the low-end good market. If more people sign up for UBI, those products should see a demand increase to drive their profitability, and not require an associated price increase. It's tied to the economics concept of an inferior good.

Last edited by Pochsy (2020-05-08 17:15:08)

Jay wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

>something that's basically never been tried
>doesn't work in practice
Assuredly these landlords/shopkeepers/what have you setting these prices are also getting the UBI, which takes care of some of their expenses so there would be no logical reason for prices to rise unless someone's being a greedy fuck

The Stockholm Syndrome of many Americans is astounding. Obviously at this point in history, you're lucky enough to have landed in the optimal situation for a citizen. Any changes at all would certainly be a detriment. What's funny is the "this is the great country on earth" worldview has essentially remained static for decades, as the situation has deteriorated and made the viewpoint laughable as one can readily point out the contradictions.

Why is he a greedy fuck if he chooses to spend his $1000 on something he wants just like the people renting from him are doing? Why is he a greedy fuck for providing a service and charging money for it? Go buy a house if you don't want to rent.

So this guy's plan, upon knowing his tenants have their income go up, is to increase his prices so that the tenants realize no gain and all their $1000 is transferred to him? Seems like a piece of shit.

A fun upside of the pandemic is showing how a lot of landlords are shitty and pointless obstacles to having a healthy working class.

Jay wrote:

Pochsy wrote:

Jay wrote:

Wonder Bread doesn't stay cheap if you expand the market for it with a universalized UBI. Supply and demand.

There are products which drive profitability for a company through volume. They tend to be low-end products where lower-income people are looking for cheap goods. Being on UBI would certainly put one at the very bottom of the low-end good market. If more people sign up for UBI, those products should see a demand increase to drive their profitability, and not require an associated price increase. It's tied to the economics concept of an inferior good.

So you expect MBA's to forgo price increases coupled with volume increases, and just settle for the volume increases? Expect shortages then.

Are you familiar with the concept of price elasticity of demand? If they increase the price for a product with a high price elasticity of demand consumers will adjust their preferred basket of goods to a competitor at a lower price point. What WILL happen if demand increases is that production will increase.

EDIT - Also, weren't you studying for an MBA at some point?

Last edited by Pochsy (2020-05-08 17:23:45)

Pochsy wrote:

Jay wrote:

Pochsy wrote:

There are products which drive profitability for a company through volume. They tend to be low-end products where lower-income people are looking for cheap goods. Being on UBI would certainly put one at the very bottom of the low-end good market. If more people sign up for UBI, those products should see a demand increase to drive their profitability, and not require an associated price increase. It's tied to the economics concept of an inferior good.

So you expect MBA's to forgo price increases coupled with volume increases, and just settle for the volume increases? Expect shortages then.

Are you familiar with the concept of price elasticity of demand? If they increase the price for a product with a high price elasticity of demand consumers will adjust their preferred basket of goods to a competitor at a lower price point. What WILL happen if demand increases is that production will increase.

EDIT - Also, weren't you studying for an MBA at some point?

I was not, but it was a goal.

Yes, but their competitors will also adjust THEIR prices up as tastes change. On a long enough timeline, consumers will have worked their way down the shelf and driven up the price across the board. And not everyone makes their choice based on money. Most people will find one brand they like along the way and drop out.

This is a rather poor example though. I wouldn't expect the price of bread, in particular, to go up very much. What I would expect to rise would be things that aren't currently staples and accessible to all people. Nearly everyone that wants to can currently buy Wonder Bread or peanut butter or jelly, etc; I wouldn't expect these to rise much as demand is fairly saturated. Things one tier up, things that could be classified as minor luxuries, these items would be the items bid up most I would think. A minor luxury to a poor person is something like a McDonald's meal.

Pochsy wrote:

Jay wrote:

Pochsy wrote:

Are you familiar with the concept of price elasticity of demand? If they increase the price for a product with a high price elasticity of demand consumers will adjust their preferred basket of goods to a competitor at a lower price point. What WILL happen if demand increases is that production will increase.

EDIT - Also, weren't you studying for an MBA at some point?

I was not, but it was a goal.

Yes, but their competitors will also adjust THEIR prices up as tastes change. On a long enough timeline, consumers will have worked their way down the shelf and driven up the price across the board. And not everyone makes their choice based on money. Most people will find one brand they like along the way and drop out.

This is a rather poor example though. I wouldn't expect the price of bread, in particular, to go up very much. What I would expect to rise would be things that aren't currently staples and accessible to all people. Nearly everyone that wants to can currently buy Wonder Bread or peanut butter or jelly, etc; I wouldn't expect these to rise much as demand is fairly saturated. Things one tier up, things that could be classified as minor luxuries, these items would be the items bid up most I would think. A minor luxury to a poor person is something like a McDonald's meal.

So McDonald's is a great example. Why do you think they have the dollar menu when they know minimum wage allows anyone who wants to to buy a more expensive meal? It's because the money for a cheap hamburger is in the volume. To ensure that Harvey's, or Wendy's, or Burger King, or whoever doesn't steal that volume, they've price the dollar menu so low that it can't be undercut due to production costs. And McDonald's is no rinky dink company that doesn't know what they're doing.

Dollar menu doesn't exist anymore. Because of our minimum wage increases they had to raise prices across the board.

Pochsy wrote:

Sucks 4 u, we have it here

Funny too, because my argument against raising the minimum wage is that the price increases to offset the wage increases would wipe out the value of said minimum wage increases. Voila!